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Overpowered options?

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Joush

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« on: <09-12-11/0411:32> »
While it's subjective to judge power balance, some options seem either too good or out and out not working the way they should. I'll start with the things I've seen. Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong or add your own, or just discuss how things work.

Cyber armor. Especially on partial limbs, this can quickly drive armor ratings to crazy levels at almost no cost.

Form fitting body armor from Arsenal, and the Personal Protection Piecemeal. The former is especially erogenous, as the rules for it nearly impossible to justify not buying it if it's allowed in a game. (Have a body of 3? Pick out armor with a ballistic of 3, add on a full suit of Form Fitting Armor and you have a ballistic rating of 9.. and your not encumbered.)

Stick and shock rounds. Hard to understand why you can get these in a 5mm rounds for your assault rifle.. oh, and overpowered.

Cyber limb customization. You really only need to see one character with Agility 1 but two Agility 9 cyber arms to think that  there should be some rule preventing that.

Makki

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« Reply #1 on: <09-12-11/0425:08> »
applaud if you found all that out by yourself :)

and generally you're right with everything. although customized cyberarms are usually fine. The worst of your examples is S'n'S, which many tables just banned. Most of the stuff, the GM can just give to the opposition, too.

Joush

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« Reply #2 on: <09-12-11/0429:33> »
Cyber armor and the armors in Arsenal I saw on my own, while SnS had to be pointed out to me and my first reading of the rules of customization, I thought they were capped by your -naturals- attributes. (The example has a person getting the limb customized to match his natural stats, not exceed them.)

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #3 on: <09-12-11/0925:47> »
Form fitting body armor from Arsenal, and the Personal Protection Piecemeal. The former is especially erogenous...

Erogenous? FF armor turns you on?

:)



-k

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #4 on: <09-12-11/0930:32> »

Stick'n'Shock comes up, from time to time.

If you're GMing at a table where players are trying to abuse it, just start insulating the opposition's body armor.

That will get them back to carrying lead pretty quick, guaranteed.  ;)

-Jn-
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kirk

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« Reply #5 on: <09-12-11/1023:59> »
The simplest "fix", recommended by hosts before me, is that your security always has at least nonconductivity 3 or 4. Chem protection too, by the way.

Now if I were recommending a rules fix, I personally would use a real life guide. SnS exists today, though it is uncommon. Essentially it's a wholly contained and miniaturized one-shot taser. Each bullet is over US $100, and is at best expected to drop to $50. In comparison, a box of 50 9mm pistol ammo runs runs about $20. 400¥ seems the absolute minimum.

I need to point out that raising the price is another recommendation hundreds before me have made. There are other limitations that get frequent mention: limiting weapons to shotguns and maybe rifles, single fire (no auto-bursts) only, and combinations of all the above.

CanRay

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« Reply #6 on: <09-12-11/1110:43> »
That will get them back to carrying lead pretty quick, guaranteed.  ;)

-Jn-
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Or switching to the much cheaper and less ballistically traceable molotov cocktails.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #7 on: <09-12-11/1113:51> »
That will get them back to carrying lead pretty quick, guaranteed.  ;)

-Jn-
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Or switching to the much cheaper and less ballistically traceable molotov cocktails.

Hard to stay in the shadows when you're setting the world on fire.  :D

(Aaannd now I'll have the Fallout song in my head all day...*sigh*)

-Jn-
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CanRay

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« Reply #8 on: <09-12-11/1117:41> »
Staying in the Shadows sometimes means using "Noise".  If you use an MO that is distinctly not your own, then it's harder to trace you on a certain job.

Especially when they're looking for Halloweeners-Turned-Professional Shadowrunners.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #9 on: <09-12-11/1131:44> »

I don't want to set the world on fire
I just want to start
A flame in your heart
In my heart I have but one desire
And that one is you
No other will do

I've lost all ambition for worldly acclaim
I just want to be the one you love
And with your admission that you feel the same
I'll have reached the goal I'm dreaming of

Believe me!
I don't want to set the world on fire
I just want to start
A flame in your heart



-Jn-
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CanRay

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« Reply #10 on: <09-12-11/1141:27> »
*Runs through the ruins of a Capital Wasteland building with a Flamer laughing like a maniac as I roast raiders and super mutants*
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

kirk

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« Reply #11 on: <09-12-11/1221:27> »
DMSO sits high on the list of offenders.

Solomon

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« Reply #12 on: <09-12-11/1430:05> »
I dont really understand the problems with stick n shock. It is more expensive than APDS and the impact is relatively similar when used in pistols and APDS is more effective in large guns. I understand that stuff in War and other supplements may bend that curve because of armor but I would really like to understand the concern.

Tsuzua

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« Reply #13 on: <09-12-11/1430:37> »
All these items are different in the ways they affect balance and some I have issues with while others I'm more okay with.

Form fitting body armor is merely armor inflation.  Everyone wears the heaviest version their GM lets them get away with (typically full or half) and gets +2 or +3 ballistic and +1 impact over their normal encumbrance.  If NPCs don't wear it, it's one of the small advantages PCs have over their foes.  If you remove it, the game becomes slightly more deadly especially to low body types.  +3 armor is big when you're otherwise rolling only 9 dice to soak damage; it matters far less when you're already rolling 18 dice.

The Securetech PPP system is different.  Since it doesn't increase your armor encumbrance limit, it merely makes it easier to reach your cap.  Unless you have 6+ body, it's pretty easy to reach or at least nearly reach your cap in street walkable style (typically X piece of armor + helmet will hit your cap with maybe gel packs too).  Its biggest advantage is that it makes it easy to "equalize" your ballistic and impact armors due to the fact the PPP system is very weighted towards impact while the vast majority of armors are weighted towards ballistic.  For that reason, nearly everyone will use at least some PPP system to equalize your ballistic and impact.  So I'm fairly okay with the PPP system.  Then again, I think ballistic and impact armor should just be combined into "armor."

Together, the armors do make life better for both low and high body types.  Low body types (body 3 or less) get a noteworthy increase in protection.  High body types (body 6+) do well since it's easier for them to reach their armor encumbrance.  Since the main reason body makes you tough is because you wear more armor, it makes it possible to buy more armor. 

Cyberlimbs are interesting.  I will admit I like that cyberlimbs are a worthwhile option for once.  In prior editions, they were mostly worthless except for the wealthiest of runners or the odd cyberdeck hiding spot.  So while I can find fault with the implementation, I'm happy with at least some of the outcome.

Cyberlimb armor is really good.  While it eats capacity like there's no tomorrow, it vastly increases survivability.  It's one of the few advantages mundanes have over mages.  A mundane can typically get a limb or two and get +6 armor over his mage brother.  Since mages have trouble equaling this (the armor spell sucks), it makes a mundane notably tougher than a mage. 

Sure, a mage can still stunbolt the mundane just as easily as before, but since most damage to PCs is caused by dudes with guns, it's a worthwhile difference.  It's enough of one, it makes cyberlimbs tempting for some mages (typically logic sorts who want to get a cerebral booster too).  It's not enough that every mage wants one, but allows cybermages to not cry themselves to sleep.  That's a pretty good sweet spot for balance (not everyone needs it nor does everyone avoid it) especially for SR standards.

However, one issue is cyberleporsy.  Just cut off your hands and feet and replace them with cyberhands and feet and armor 2 (bulky and armor 3 if the GM doesn't slap you).  +8 armor for 1 essence and ~22000Y is a great deal.  I must admit I'm not too crazy about this either.  But getting +3 armor with a full cyberlimb isn't too bad and spamming that is fairly hard to do without some sort of cost.

Cyberlimb armor however does regulate bone lacing to a small niche (adepts and other punchy dudes) and destroys dermal plating and orthoskin.  Really I'll be fore nerfing cyberlimb armor and buffing those pieces of ware.  Even without cyberlimb's huge advantages looming over them, dermal plating, orthoskin, and some types of bone lacing are still overpriced.  It also keeps the "few advantages mundanes have over mages" aspects that cyberlimb armor provides.

The Cyberarm of Awesome is a fairly new addition to the optimizing SR arsenal.  As I discuss here, it's a cheap and easy way for a non-combat character to become good at combat.  They aren't a combat monster though.  Getting two arms is pretty heavy on the essence or money (wired reflexes 2 + 2 cyberlimbs is 5 essence right there which does heavily cut into other options or requires a lot of money spent on Synaptic Boosters). 

Also all-around agility is still quite good.  Infiltration and other agility likely uses the legs, the whole body, or careful coordination so it can't make sneaky or anything like that.  So it's a reasonable option for some characters, but nothing you gotta have.

SnS has several problems.  The first is that it's weird that everyone shoots less lethal taser darts in the grimdark future.  Secondly even if everyone and their dog has Nonconductivity 6, SnS are still a very good option.  If the target's armor is 12 or higher, SnS generally breaks even or does even better against other ammos.  For the lighter firearms like pistols, it's a net increase of DV.  Going from 4P to 6S pretty much negates the bonus armor from Nonconductivity 6.  Also SnS goes against impact which typically is 2 lower effective armor unless you are careful with armor choices.   

If you weren't going to one-shot your target anyways (and thus honestly it doesn't matter what you were shooting at them), the electric damage aspect of SnS is really good.  The -2 penalty is effectively -2 AP for the follow up shot.  It also has the side effect of making it easier to hit thus in some edge cases, you might be able to get away with a narrow burst you otherwise wouldn't have.  The "taze someone for 3+ combat turns" aspect typically doesn't work especially with heavy use of nonconductivity, but it's always nice when it does. 

That said, the best reason to keep SnS around is to keep spirits honest.  A called shot with a hold out with SnS is a threat to a force 10 spirit.  Whereas a called shot with an AR with Ex-Ex is only a threat to force 7 spirit.  It allows mundanes to have an easy to carry and use option for dealing with stuff mages can make with their minds.    Similarily it does a good job dealing with high armor types you see from time to time. 
« Last Edit: <09-12-11/1550:14> by Tsuzua »

kirk

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« Reply #14 on: <09-12-11/1531:54> »
I dont really understand the problems with stick n shock. It is more expensive than APDS and the impact is relatively similar when used in pistols and APDS is more effective in large guns. I understand that stuff in War and other supplements may bend that curve because of armor but I would really like to understand the concern.
The main problem is that it doesn't cost enough given how good it is. The main thing is that it allows any weapon to have a defacto armor piercing value of 1/2 the armor's rating, PLUS an impact value equivalent to those of long arms.

Consider someone with body 4 in 12/12 armor facing two different shooters. Shooter one is using a streetline special with SnS medium range. Shooter two is using an AK-97 with ExEx, also at short range. Their respective attribute+skill+mods dice are identical for 15 dice each, giving them "perfect" distributions of 5. The defender rolls 2 hits for defense. This gives us net hits of 3.

Shooter one's result is 6+3=9, and there is no need to compare to the armor yet because its stun. Defender rolls 4+6 (halved armor) = 10 dice. 3 1/3 nominal rounded up is 4, so he takes 5 hits.

Shooter two's result is 6+3+1 for 10. This is less than the impact 12 and so it is stun damage. Defender rolls 4+12-1 (ExEx AP mod) = 15 dice for 5, and he takes 3 hits.

So all else being equal, the holdout in this case does just short of double the damage of the assault rifle BEFORE I do the electrical damage test.


 

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