[JoeNapalm]

The Securetech PPP system is different.  Since it doesn't increase your armor encumbrance, it merely makes it easier to reach your cap.  Unless you have 6+ body, it's pretty easy to reach or at least nearly reach your cap in street walkable style (typically X piece of armor + helmet will hit your cap with maybe gel packs too).  Its biggest advantage is that it makes it easy to "equalize" your ballistic and impact armors due to the fact the PPP system is very weighted towards impact while the vast majority of armors are weighted towards ballistic.  For that reason, nearly everyone will use at least some PPP system to equalize your ballistic and impact.  So I'm fairly okay with the PPP system.  Then again, I think ballistic and impact armor should just be combined into "armor."

I've seen this a couple of times, now - where does it says that PPP doesn't add encumbrance?

I don't have a problem with the split between Ballistic and Impact. Kevlar will stop a bullet in its tracks, but doesn't help you a heck of a lot vs a knife or baseball bat.

"Thou shall not feel invulnerable while wearing soft body armor."


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatraite

[kirk]

The Securetech PPP system is different.  Since it doesn't increase your armor encumbrance, it merely makes it easier to reach your cap.  Unless you have 6+ body, it's pretty easy to reach or at least nearly reach your cap in street walkable style (typically X piece of armor + helmet will hit your cap with maybe gel packs too).  Its biggest advantage is that it makes it easy to "equalize" your ballistic and impact armors due to the fact the PPP system is very weighted towards impact while the vast majority of armors are weighted towards ballistic.  For that reason, nearly everyone will use at least some PPP system to equalize your ballistic and impact.  So I'm fairly okay with the PPP system.  Then again, I think ballistic and impact armor should just be combined into "armor."

I've seen this a couple of times, now - where does it says that PPP doesn't add encumbrance?

I don't have a problem with the split between Ballistic and Impact. Kevlar will stop a bullet in its tracks, but doesn't help you a heck of a lot vs a knife or baseball bat.

"Thou shall not feel invulnerable while wearing soft body armor."

I think it's a misreading of:

These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance; instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do (see Helmets and Shields, p. 317, SR4, and Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4).

(my emphasis)

[Solomon]

I dont really understand the problems with stick n shock. It is more expensive than APDS and the impact is relatively similar when used in pistols and APDS is more effective in large guns. I understand that stuff in War and other supplements may bend that curve because of armor but I would really like to understand the concern.

The main problem is that it doesn't cost enough given how good it is. The main thing is that it allows any weapon to have a defacto armor piercing value of 1/2 the armor's rating, PLUS an impact value equivalent to those of long arms.

Consider someone with body 4 in 12/12 armor facing two different shooters. Shooter one is using a streetline special with SnS medium range. Shooter two is using an AK-97 with ExEx, also at short range. Their respective attribute+skill+mods dice are identical for 15 dice each, giving them "perfect" distributions of 5. The defender rolls 2 hits for defense. This gives us net hits of 3.

Shooter one's result is 6+3=9, and there is no need to compare to the armor yet because its stun. Defender rolls 4+6 (halved armor) = 10 dice. 3 1/3 nominal rounded up is 4, so he takes 5 hits.

Shooter two's result is 6+3+1 for 10. This is less than the impact 12 and so it is stun damage. Defender rolls 4+12-1 (ExEx AP mod) = 15 dice for 5, and he takes 3 hits.

So all else being equal, the holdout in this case does just short of double the damage of the assault rifle BEFORE I do the electrical damage test.

Okay but a guy with 4 body has a max of 8 unencumbered armor. Dont use Extra Explsoive, use APDS, which costs 10 credits less than Stick n Shock. So if the armor is 8 and both are using heayy pistols the damage is the same or better for the APDS and if both are using hold outs the stick n shock is only a little better and does cost more. Now go up to shotguns or sniper rifles and the math is even more in your favor with APDS. Availability is high for APDS so you dont start with it but you can find it pretty quick with a good fixer.

[Tsuzua]

Oops, I could have written that passage better.  I mean it doesn't add to your armor encumbrance in the sense it doesn't increase the your armor encumbrance limit.  For example, getting all of the PPP set gives you +2/+6 that counts towards the limit. I'm going to rewrite that passage.

Edit: As for the soft/hard difference, mainly it just means knives and the like have -2 extra AP.  Nearly all the common armor choices have the values of X/X-2.  If you're using uncommon armor choices (including FFBA), then it's going to be Body*2+3/Body*2+1.  Either way, you can just make some attacks have better AP and save a lot of tracking and makes Pretty Princess Dressuprun that much easier for those who don't like algebra.  It also stops the game designers from forgetting the effective difference in values for things like ammo.

[kirk]

I dont really understand the problems with stick n shock. It is more expensive than APDS and the impact is relatively similar when used in pistols and APDS is more effective in large guns. I understand that stuff in War and other supplements may bend that curve because of armor but I would really like to understand the concern.

The main problem is that it doesn't cost enough given how good it is. The main thing is that it allows any weapon to have a defacto armor piercing value of 1/2 the armor's rating, PLUS an impact value equivalent to those of long arms.

Consider someone with body 4 in 12/12 armor facing two different shooters. Shooter one is using a streetline special with SnS medium range. Shooter two is using an AK-97 with ExEx, also at short range. Their respective attribute+skill+mods dice are identical for 15 dice each, giving them "perfect" distributions of 5. The defender rolls 2 hits for defense. This gives us net hits of 3.

Shooter one's result is 6+3=9, and there is no need to compare to the armor yet because its stun. Defender rolls 4+6 (halved armor) = 10 dice. 3 1/3 nominal rounded up is 4, so he takes 5 hits.

Shooter two's result is 6+3+1 for 10. This is less than the impact 12 and so it is stun damage. Defender rolls 4+12-1 (ExEx AP mod) = 15 dice for 5, and he takes 3 hits.

So all else being equal, the holdout in this case does just short of double the damage of the assault rifle BEFORE I do the electrical damage test.

Okay but a guy with 4 body has a max of 8 unencumbered armor. Dont use Extra Explsoive, use APDS, which costs 10 credits less than Stick n Shock. So if the armor is 8 and both are using heayy pistols the damage is the same or better for the APDS and if both are using hold outs the stick n shock is only a little better and does cost more. Now go up to shotguns or sniper rifles and the math is even more in your favor with APDS. Availability is high for APDS so you dont start with it but you can find it pretty quick with a good fixer.

I intentionally made everything as equal as possible for flat comparisons. It's actually harder to get Impact up to high numbers, so right away you're (usually) dealing with lower armor to face. This is countered somewhat by non-conductive.

What the heck. Let's do this again. Target has body 6. He's wearing full body armor (10/8) with helmet (2/2) plus PPP shin and forearm guards (both +0/+1) for 12/12. He's also reasonably intelligent and has rating 6 non-conductive.

Our shooters have, respectively, the aforementioned streetline special and a PJSS. The former has SnS, the latter has APDS. To try and maintain some apples to apples all other external mods will be exactly the same for each. Oh, wait, one more thing: we're going to have both weapons at 10 meters. That's medium for the holdout and short for the shotgun.

This time, shotgun first. 15 dice gives us about 3 net hits plus 7 for the gun, is 10. Defender's penetration test is 6+12-1(shotgun)-4(APDS) is 13 = 4 1/3 which we'll round to 4. 6 damage - oh, it's Physical.

Back to the holdout. Shooter one gets one less die - only 14. That's still 3 net (4 2/3 - 2) which with the 8 from the ammo is 11. Defender penetration is 6+6 (half of armor) +6 (noncondutive) = 18 dice for 6 hits, giving a net of 5 damage. There's an electrical damage test. With 18+willpower to beat a threshold of 3 he's probably not going to be knocked out. However, he's disoriented and will be at -2 for all tests for the next 5 (2+ net hits) combat rounds.

6P vs 5S + 5 cbt turns at -2. Shotgun with APDS vs Streetline Special at 10 meters.

Do you see yet why SnS is considered overpowered for the price?

[Solomon]

Not really because I dont really worry about the disorientation. You pull the trigger twice at 6P damage after defense and soak and the guy 6 body is in overflow and essentially dead. Say he has 3 willpower, the guy who took 10 S is unconscious. Either way two shots, two simple actions and the guy is down. The disorientation is unimportant. I think stick n shock may need a higher availability possibly but it already costs more than the APDS at flat rates. It is a powerful ammo, I agree, but not so much because of it's damage but because you can stick it in any gun.

[Tsuzua]

As for SnS, it's a combination of small little things.  Also in SR if you're a halfway decent shot, you can two shot a Body 4 Armor 8 guy.  Here's some samples:

I have a 13 dice pool (Agility 5 + Skill 6 + Smartlink 2).  I'm shooting at a Body 4, Reaction 7, Willpower 4, Armor 8 target.  I'm averaging everything out so some values will be decimals even though the outcomes are discrete (i.e. 4.66 damage on average even though it's really more like overall 4,5,5 boxes over three shots).

With Heavy Pistol APDS, I do 5P -5AP base.  With 2 net hits on my first attack, I do 7P -5AP.  The target roll 7 dice and takes 4.66 damage.  I shoot again and this time get 2.66 net hits (-1 defense from second attack and -1 from damage).  So the target takes 7.66 damage and takes 5.33 damage.  This on average will take him out with 10 boxes.  Though there's a decent change of him staying up at say 9 boxes of damage and shooting you back.

With Heavy Pistol SnS, I do 6S -1/2AP base.  With 2 net hits, I do 8S -1/2AP.  The target rolls 8 dice.  The target takes 5.33 damage.  Now he has to make an Electrical Damage test, rolling Body + Willpower + 1/2 Impact or 11 dice.  Sure odds are he'll make it, but if not, I'm done and take a shot at a second target.  Let's assume he always makes it and takes the -2.  His defense test is now 3.  With 3.33 net hits, I do 9.33S -1/2AP.  So the target takes 6.66 boxes of damage.  That's 12 net damage so there's far less room for lucky rolls along with the possible chance of an one-shot takedown.  For 2Y, I think it's a good deal.

Now let's give the target Nonconductivity 6 and gives him 14 dice to soak damage.  He's now taking 3.33 damage the first shot.  On the second shot, I do 4.66 damage.  That's 8 damage on average.  That's worse.

But let's give the target FFBA as well.  Now his armor is 11 Ballistic / 9 Impact.  APDS now deals 3.66 the first shot and 4.33 the second shot.  That's 8 boxes of damage.

Against SnS, the target now rolls 15 dice (Body 4 + 9/2 round up Impact + Nonconductivity 6).  So the first shot does 3 damage.  The second shot deals 4.33.  That's 7.33 damage.  Worse, but not that much worse.

Here's the interesting thing in this case, when the target shoots back, the values will be different.  Assuming that the target is just as good at me at shooting at 13 dice, the APDS shoots at 11 dice.  The SnS target has 9.  That's a decent improvement in missing and reduction in damage at least (.66DV per shot).

There's also that it's better to KO someone that kill them.  You can always kill them later without trouble and your mage can mind probe them / not get a murder charge / feel good and warm inside.

This is also the sweet spot for APDS.  As armor increases, SnS becomes more and more valuable.  Also the smaller defense test SnS gives you increases the chance of you successfully hitting with a call shot on the second shot (~15% better chance) which will totally take the target out.

[kirk]

One last try (in addition to Tsuzua's comment).

The target is UmaroVI's archetype Troll Street Samurai (link)

Armor is 28/26 +6 nonconduct. Body 5(7). Willpower 5. Reaction 5.

I'm not going to draw out the numbers other than to say I'm oomphing them to 21 dice (7 hits) for the weapon users attrib+skill+mods. Instead, assuming the troll stands still, it takes the shotgun wielder 6 simple action shots to drop (stun) the troll with APDS. It takes the holdout 4 because of the disorientation.

Flipping the ammo, the shotgun with SnS and 21 base dice also only needs 4 shots to drop the troll.  The hold out with APDS will need 11 shots. (7 hits - 2 defense = 5 net hits + 5 ammo = 10, which is less than 28 so it's Stun.  28 armor + 5 body - 4 ammo = 27 for 9 hits. 10-9=1S.)

SnS means the holdout gun is better than the shotgun inside its own range (barring ranges). This is an aberration from ALL other ammo choices.

[Solomon]

 The  soak against APDS in the shotgun is 30 and the soak against Stick in Shock is 26, so four dice is one less level of damage per shot based on soak on average so I am not sure it is as dramatic as you say with four shots vs 11. Frankly, if you are going to do ridiculous levels of armor stacking you deserve to be taken down by a stick n shock round though in my opinion. I am discussing the average combatant not the outlier.

[kirk]

The  soak against APDS in the shotgun is 30 and the soak against Stick in Shock is 26, so four dice is one less level of damage per shot based on soak on average so I am not sure it is as dramatic as you say with four shots vs 11. Frankly, if you are going to do ridiculous levels of armor stacking you deserve to be taken down by a stick n shock round though in my opinion. I am discussing the average combatant not the outlier.

No, the soak against stick and shock is not 26. half the armor, remember?

As to the "outlier" discussion... meh.

Here's the simple. In almost every situation, SnS is the best choice for taking down opponents with every firearm that has 7P or less damage, and is often the better choice for 8 and 9P.

[Solomon]

Half of the original 26 is 13. The you add the level 6 insulation. Then you add the Body attribute. Basic arithmetic brings that total to 26. Your argument for always using stick n shock is only true when nobody has insulation and anyone who spends a lot of money on armor should probably have it. Even without stick n shock, tasers and stun batons are out there.

[Joush]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Especaly Tsuzua's really well thought out post that detailed what is up with many of the things I mentioned armor wise.. just one thing I have to dissent on.

Form fitting body armor is merely armor inflation.  Everyone wears the heaviest version their GM lets them get away with (typically full or half) and gets +2 or +3 ballistic and +1 impact over their normal encumbrance.

That's the thing, it's an option that there is -never- any reason not to take. It's cheap, legal and available with no downside, as it's +6 ballistic armor that counts as +3 for encumbrance. I don't "options" where there are no trade offs or tactical considerations involved, just "Option A: Have 6 armor. Option B: Have 9 armor."

The PPP annoys me more because it means there is no downside to picking an armor with a low Impact value, and it means pretty much every character is  or should be wearing a bunch of athletic pads in order to tweak their armor values, but I don't have as big a problem with it.

Both are also annoying for a fluff reason: They should be built into existing armor. Full Body Armor has shin guards, a groin protector and knee pads. The idea that you can up it's effectiveness by putting more knee pads over them comes off as laughable, and the form fitting armor seems like it would be built into an under layer of pretty much all full body suits.

As far as Stick and Shock goes.. yeah, they should have been a shotgun-only option. The fact that it's really hard to find corner cases where they aren't straight up better then explosive or heavy armor piercing rounds helps underline that.

[kirk]

I stand corrected. 26 dice for the first. And the second - where I'd been applying -2 for disorientation. (only applies to action tests. resisting penetration is not action). mea culpa, I apologize for that error.

I'll stand by the statement regarding any 7P or less firearm.

Shotgun. 21 dice is 7 hits base, 5 hits net. APDS is 5+7=12. SnS is 5+6=11. APDS soak is 30 gets ~10. SnS soak is 26 gets ~9. 2 hits for both, SnS means troll shoots back at -2. SnS has low chance of electrical damage knockdown (31 dice, 3 threshold)

Pistol. 21 dice is 7 hits base, 5 hits net. APDS is 5+4=9. SnS is 5+6=11. Soaks are the same. APDS is 9-9=0 damage. SnS is still 2 hits and disorientation.

[Solomon]

Okay so now instead of an absolutely ridiculous troll with armor that cries out to be hit with an vehicle mounted weapon do the math with an average threat 4 or 5 NPC and tell me that it still plays out with a disparity. Body of 5, armor of 10/8 and 6 levels of nonconductivity. The math flips in favor of the APDS significantly. On average and in normal situations there isnt a difference until you get to absolutely ridiculous levels where stick n shock is required to restore some balance to the average character who doesnt want to play a twinked out troll

[Tsuzua]

So let's look at the Renraku Red Samurai fighting each other.  Body 5, Reaction 7, Willpower 4, Full Body Armor 10/8, and Nonconductivity 6 and shooting with 14 dice.

Shotgun with APDS, 7P -5AP.  First shot 7 dice over, 2.33 net hits so 9.33P -5AP versus Soak 10.  He takes 6P.  Second shot does 10.33P versus Soak 10.  He takes 7 damage.  That's more than enough to take the target out.  I will point out this is how much damage a SnS pistol does in a non-conductivity world (such if you're using book Red Samurai).

Shotgun with SnS, 6S -1/2AP.  First shot is 8.33S -1/2AP versus Soak 15.  He takes 3.33.  He then makes a 19 dice and needs 3 hits.  He'll make it.  Second shot is 9.66S -1/2AP versus Soak 15.  He takes 4.66.  That's 7 damage total, not enough to take him out.

I will grant for stuff like shotguns, SnS is a very meh option in a Nonconductivity 6 world.  You do have to live in such world and anyone who doesn't play in that world is boned.

Now let's make them Ares Cowboys armed with an actually good gun.

Ares Alpha with Shock Pad, Gas-Vent 3, Auto-adjusting Underbarrel Weight.  That's 8 points of recoil compensation.  Honestly, you could go lower on RC as long as you can hit 5 recoil RC.  -3 dice to the second shot doesn't really matter at all.  So you could do a AK-97 with Gas Vents 3, Underbarrel Weight, and stock if you wanted to save nuyen.

Alpha APDS 6P -5 AP.  He'll start with a Long Narrow Burst (+5 DV) which does 11P -5AP base.  After net hits, that's 13.33P damage versus Soak 10.  That's 10 damage.  The second shot is a Short Narrow Burst (+2 DV) which does 8P -5AP base.  After net hits, that's 11.66P -5AP versus Soak 10.  After 8.33 more damage the target is toast.  Which is more than enough to kill the target.

Alpha SnS is 6P -1/2AP.  He'll start with a Long Narrow Burst which does 11S -1/2AP.  After net hits, that's 13.33P versus Soak 15.  That's 8.33 damage.  The second shot is a Shot Narrow Burst for 8S -1/2AP base.  That's 12S -1/2AP versus Soak 15.  Taking 7S for the KO.

The net result is pretty much the same.  You take the target out after 1 pass.  The only difference is 9Y (you'll have to fire 500 rounds for a squatter to lose a month of rent).  Except, that's where a lot of beanies of SnS come into pay.

First off, the SnS works just as well in any firearm.  Thus you can do Assault Rifle damage with a machine pistol, that's much more concealable.  Secondly, it takes the target out alive.  Even in a grimdark world, defeated foes you can kill later if you want is usually better than dead foes especially in a world of Mind Probe.  If you run into a Force 6 spirit (which shouldn't be that uncommon), the APDS user needs 2 net hits to hurt the thing.  The SnS user will hit if he connects and do more damage.  A higher force spirit will rapidly be out of the reach of the APDS user while still a target for the SnS user.  SnS is also restricted so you can use it with other restricted gear.  How much you care varies (I tend to use illegal HV weaponary myself).  The last thing is that the physical track goes longer than the willpower track as well.  A 9 body 5 Willpower troll has a track of 13, but a Willpower roll of 11.  That can make a big difference as well.  All of this for an opportunity cost of 1Y a bullet.

Red Samurai like most unoptimized characters are huge glass cannons.  Basically whoever goes first wins.  If the target is actually tough enough to stand to AR fire, then SnS is going to be better.  If the target full dodges, SnS is better since it cuts down on the defense check more and thus increases the chance of success on the follow up hit.  Then again if they're active dodging, you've already won. 

To wrap up my argument, in a game where people have poor gun choices, are glass cannons, aren't spirits, and wear nonconductivity 6, APDS is better.  In a game where those aren't the case, SnS is better.