[Joush]

I love the fact that nobody seems to think it's a problem that everyone is basically required to have Nonconducting 6 armor.  In the book, it's a slightly obscure option with little to suggest that it should be built into every suit of armor used by everyone from Go Gangers and Halloweeners to Corpsec, soldiers and random troll bouncers.

It seems like it would be easier to restrict Stick 'n Shock from 5mm assault rifles and 10mm pistols to just 19mm shotguns.

[Medicineman]

two of the most used Houserules with S&S Ammo are:
1)  S&S Ammo  only in Rifles (not in Pistols or SMG)
2)  No raise of damage with Netto Hits.The damage stays 6S
in one of my Rounds we use successfully Houserule #2

with Dance # 2
Medicineman

[Mäx]

Everyone always craves about the OP:nes of S&S, but the truth is that there are only very few scenarios where S&S gives anykind of improvement on actual take down capacity(ie. badguys down per IP).
So unless someone is forcing you to only use hold-outs or light pistols, S&S isn't that awesome and if situation does limits you weapon choice like that then your almost always better of using a Deviance-EX-Shocker anyway.

[Kontact]

Cyber armor. Especially on partial limbs, this can quickly drive armor ratings to crazy levels at almost no cost.

There is a social cost to having giant armored hands and feet.  It's obvious, memorable and hella suspicious.

Form fitting body armor from Arsenal, and the Personal Protection Piecemeal. The former is especially erogenous, as the rules for it nearly impossible to justify not buying it if it's allowed in a game. (Have a body of 3? Pick out armor with a ballistic of 3, add on a full suit of Form Fitting Armor and you have a ballistic rating of 9.. and your not encumbered.)

Soaking 1 extra DV on average is not game breaking.  Really what it does is moves most damage to S rather than P.  If you think that anyone with less than 4 body should get shot to death the first time they catch a spray of bullets, then that's your call.  Most folks don't have a problem playing without that though.

Stick and shock rounds. Hard to understand why you can get these in a 5mm rounds for your assault rifle.. oh, and overpowered.

I think this was partially an attempt to introduce high-tech bullets to a high-tech game and to give players a non-lethal option so that the game isn't entirely based on running around and shooting cops to death.  There are some people who aren't comfortable with mass murder.  SnS gives those people a better alternative to murder.  When you consider the fact that you can do 8S(e) with the Defiance EX shocker, SnS isn't such a big deal.  Maybe the damage should even scale up with weapon size rather than scale down for lower calibers?

Cyber limb customization. You really only need to see one character with Agility 1 but two Agility 9 cyber arms to think that  there should be some rule preventing that.

There's a lot more to shadowrun than shooting guns and getting shot by guns.  An obvious cyberarm is not a choice many characters can get away with and not one that many will particularly need.

[Solomon]

I guess I never saw SnS as that broken because we dont play an "optimized" campaign. It seems reasonably balanced against the level of play described in the book, where Tir Ghosts and Red Samurai are scary and basic characters seem more like real people with unique skill sets. I am also glad Kontact raised the point of tasers with the same rules and more damage. Anyway, I do recognize the math in the context where some of you seem to play but I guess coming for another place entirely I never previously recognized a problem. Especially since reading the books and seeing how electrical damage worked I have always had nonconductivity 6. I tend to play defensive oriented characters in all games over offensive ones and it seemd like a reasonable and cheap option to add to armor if your players ran around depending on electricity too much

[Joush]

"Giant" armored hands and feet, Kontact? Without modding them for bulk, cyberhands and feet are the same size as the ones they replace, and can be hidden under shoes or gloves.

My problem with Form Fitting armor isn't that it's game breakingly powerful, it's that the rules for it are awful. There is never a reason not to have it. It would have been faster for them to just say that everyone gets 3 extra points of Ballistic armor that dose not count to Encumbrance when wearing armor.

Stick and Shock rounds are there to introduce something like the XREP wireless taser shotgun rounds, and are one rule away from working just fine as a high tech ammo type. I don't think anybody minds that their are nonlethal options, but the game has serious problems when it's faster and easier to take someone down non lethally then to kill them*. They also make gel rounds pointless. That a single shot weapon with the lowest range in the game and a tiny magazine can do a bit more damage is not enough to excuse how SnS works.

That cyberlimbs are not an option taken by most of the characters in the setting dose nothing to excuse the rules for them for being awful, and I don't know what you mean by people being unable to get away with them. Cyberlimbs aren't even Restricted, much less Forbidden. Again, this is annoying because it's one simple rules fix from being fine. **

As to Salomon, I understand your opinion, but a 400 BP shadowrunner is -not- a regular person. While the system is flexible enough to encompass many archetypes, they are almost certainly more powerful then an average person. Not every game is about combat, or even involves it. That doesn't excuse bad rules.

* Rendering someone helpless without doing them serious harm is -hard- in the real world, especially if they are trying to hurt you. Killing them is physicality less challenging, given appropriated tools.
**Just make custom cyberlimbs limited to the character's naturals attributes (Rather then maximums), make Stick and Shock shotgun-only and have cyberlimb armor unavailable for partial limbs and limited to Rating 1.

[squee_nabob]

I’m confused why SnS is being compared against other bullet types (yes, we know that some bullet types suck), but not against spells. If SnS makes a Street Sam as effective offensively as a mage, then what is the problem?

[Solomon]

Looking at a 400 point build and at what skills at certain ratings equate too and I dont think I could build my own fat, lazy ass as a 400 point character. As a 35 year old college graduate home owner I am easily more than 400 points and that is without the extreme training we add in to all our character backgrounds. 400 points doesnt go anywhere near far enough for that.

[Critias]

If SnS makes a Street Sam as effective offensively as a mage, then what is the problem?

I think the chief complaint seems to be "because other bullets don't, too."

[squee_nabob]

That means SnS isn’t overpowered, it’s all other bullet types are underpowered.

[kirk]

I’m confused why SnS is being compared against other bullet types (yes, we know that some bullet types suck), but not against spells. If SnS makes a Street Sam as effective offensively as a mage, then what is the problem?

A solid point.

Compared to what cyber, magic, and technos can do, that one of the bullets is a bit more potent than the rest seems somewhat of a sideshow.

I mean seriously: Control Mind?

[Zilfer]

I’m confused why SnS is being compared against other bullet types (yes, we know that some bullet types suck), but not against spells. If SnS makes a Street Sam as effective offensively as a mage, then what is the problem?

A solid point.

Compared to what cyber, magic, and technos can do, that one of the bullets is a bit more potent than the rest seems somewhat of a sideshow.

I mean seriously: Control Mind?

>.> or in my mage's case....

12F Stunball. <.<

Resist 7 physical drain with 9 dice. (most likely edged for another 6 dice).

<.< 12 stun will drop most people i thinks.

Stick and shock the equavalent of stun balls/bolts of the wizarding world?

xD


I am still confused however how you calculate SnS damage however.


Net hit's increase the stun damage >.> i think is what i'm getting from what i just read but the base damage is 6S no matter what gun it is in? which really isn't that much more than a pistol but eh.  <.< I have a question though with armor isn't most of it metal and i seem to remember reading something about metal and electrical damage.

[kirk]

I’m confused why SnS is being compared against other bullet types (yes, we know that some bullet types suck), but not against spells. If SnS makes a Street Sam as effective offensively as a mage, then what is the problem?

A solid point.

Compared to what cyber, magic, and technos can do, that one of the bullets is a bit more potent than the rest seems somewhat of a sideshow.

I mean seriously: Control Mind?

>.> or in my mage's case....

12F Stunball. <.<

Resist 7 physical drain with 9 dice. (most likely edged for another 6 dice).

<.< 12 stun will drop most people i thinks.

Stick and shock the equavalent of stun balls/bolts of the wizarding world?

xD


I am still confused however how you calculate SnS damage however.


Net hit's increase the stun damage >.> i think is what i'm getting from what i just read but the base damage is 6S no matter what gun it is in? which really isn't that much more than a pistol but eh.  <.< I have a question though with armor isn't most of it metal and i seem to remember reading something about metal and electrical damage.

Yes, by RAW net hits increase stun damage. As to "how much"

4P	Holdouts (non-flechette), light pistols, machine pistols.5P
5P	Heavy pistols, SMGs
6P	Assault Rifles, Light and Medium MGs
6S	Stick and Shock Ammo
7P	Shotguns. Low end of sport and sniper rifles. Heavy machine guns

re the metal and armor, no, most armor isn't metal. Your memory re metal and electricity is both correct and not applicable.

[Mäx]

My problem with Form Fitting armor isn't that it's game breakingly powerful, it's that the rules for it are awful. There is never a reason not to have it.

There something seriously wrong on how you run the game world, if there's never a reason not to wear a full-body condom

but the game has serious problems when it's faster and easier to take someone down non lethally then to kill them

Well it really isn't, at least not with S&S unless as my previous post said your limited to hold-outs and light pistols(in witch case your better of using that troll taser you so casually diminished)
in pretty much 99 cases out off a hundred it takes you 2 shots to take down an opponent with S&S and same 2 shot to kill that target with other kind of bullets.

[Zilfer]

I’m confused why SnS is being compared against other bullet types (yes, we know that some bullet types suck), but not against spells. If SnS makes a Street Sam as effective offensively as a mage, then what is the problem?

A solid point.

Compared to what cyber, magic, and technos can do, that one of the bullets is a bit more potent than the rest seems somewhat of a sideshow.

I mean seriously: Control Mind?

>.> or in my mage's case....

12F Stunball. <.<

Resist 7 physical drain with 9 dice. (most likely edged for another 6 dice).

<.< 12 stun will drop most people i thinks.

Stick and shock the equavalent of stun balls/bolts of the wizarding world?

xD


I am still confused however how you calculate SnS damage however.


Net hit's increase the stun damage >.> i think is what i'm getting from what i just read but the base damage is 6S no matter what gun it is in? which really isn't that much more than a pistol but eh.  <.< I have a question though with armor isn't most of it metal and i seem to remember reading something about metal and electrical damage.

Yes, by RAW net hits increase stun damage. As to "how much"

4P	Holdouts (non-flechette), light pistols, machine pistols.5P
5P	Heavy pistols, SMGs
6P	Assault Rifles, Light and Medium MGs
6S	Stick and Shock Ammo
7P	Shotguns. Low end of sport and sniper rifles. Heavy machine guns

re the metal and armor, no, most armor isn't metal. Your memory re metal and electricity is both correct and not applicable.

Most armor is not metal? o.O' *surprised*

Though again, that's probably because I come from DnD 3.5 world. xD

Darn fantasy world screwing up my impression of the new age! xD