[Drax]

I'm having a bit of trouble determining how augmented attribute maximums work and how to apply them when magic comes in to play. Even worse, when magic gets combined with cyberware or bioware.

In 4e the concept of augmented maximums was spelled out explicitly in the Attribute Ratings section of the Game Concepts chapter, 4eCR pg 68.

The standard range of natural human attributes is rated on a scale of 1 to 6, with 3 being average. Physical and Mental attributes have a maximum natural rating of 6 plus or minus metatype modifiers, depending on metatype (p. 81). The maximum augmented attribute value for each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down (see the Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81).

But there's no similarly clear definition for augmented maximums in the 5e Game Concepts section so far as I can tell. The closest thing in the book that I've found is under the Spending your Resources section of the Creating a Shadowrunner chapter, 5eCR pg 94.

Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

This seems like a really odd place to put the only mention of augmentation limits, and it doesn't actually use the term "augmented maximum", which is the term found under the description for the spell Increase Attribute. Instead it uses the term augmentation bonus cap. So, is the spell increase attribute limited to giving a +4 bonus, regardless of force and base stat?

Say a mage with willpower 5 casts increase attribute [willpower] on himself and rolls 5 successes. Is his willpower now 5(9) or 5(10) ?

Lets make things even more complicated. Say you have a runner with natural strength 2 and muscle augmentation bioware level 2 giving her a strength of 2(4). The description for muscle augmentation explicitly states it's not compatible with other augmentations that increases strength (5eCR pg 459) (which differs from muscle replacement cyberware which is incompatible with augmentation to muscles) but  it's unclear how either augmentation is meant to combines with magic spells. The wording for the increase attribute spell itself makes clear it's intended to be possible to cast the spell on already augmented stats, but it doesn't say which other augmentations it's compatible with or if the bonuses from the spell and possible cyber and bio are intended to be cumulative or if only the greater bonus should be applied. So, getting back to this scenario, let's say the party's mage casts increase attribute [strength] on the other runner at force 4 and gets 3 successes.

What happens?

• Does the spell combine with the bioware giving a cumulative bonus of +5 and a final strength stat of 2(7)?
• Does the spell combine with the bioware giving a cumulative bonus which is capped at +4 giving a final strength of 2(6)?
• Does the spell effectively override the bioware with only the largest bonus of +3 being applied since they aren't cumulative and the runner ends up with a final strength of 2(5)?
• Does the spell not combine with the bioware and simply fail to give any bonus at all, leaving the runner with the same 2(4) strength that she started with?

Would this scenario play out differently if it was muscle replacement cyber instead of muscle augmentation bio providing that +2 augmentation bonus, since the bio can't be combined with other augmentations to strength while the cyber can't be combined to other augmentations to muscle, or is that a pedantic distinction of semantics that shouldn't make any difference and is likely just down to bad editing.

Any insight and opinions would be appreciated with bonus karma given out if you can find rules that apply which I've somehow overlooked! Thanks chummers.

[ProfGast]

What happens?

• Does the spell combine with the bioware giving a cumulative bonus of +5 and a final strength stat of 2(7)?
• Does the spell combine with the bioware giving a cumulative bonus which is capped at +4 giving a final strength of 2(6)?
• Does the spell effectively override the bioware with only the largest bonus of +3 being applied since they aren't cumulative and the runner ends up with a final strength of 2(5)?
• Does the spell not combine with the bioware and simply fail to give any bonus at all, leaving the runner with the same 2(4) strength that she started with?

Would this scenario play out differently if it was muscle replacement cyber instead of muscle augmentation bio providing that +2 augmentation bonus, since the bio can't be combined with other augmentations to strength while the cyber can't be combined to other augmentations to muscle, or is that a pedantic distinction of semantics that shouldn't make any difference and is likely just down to bad editing.

Any insight and opinions would be appreciated with bonus karma given out if you can find rules that apply which I've somehow overlooked! Thanks chummers.

I read item 3. as the correct answer.  The bonuses do not stack, but the better of the two is applicable, and it won't exceed +4 at any time (the new augmented maximum as it were.)  In the case of Muscle Replacement 2, You'd have +3 Strength, +2 Agility using my interpretation.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Erm, when muscle agumentation says it's not compatible with other augmentations to strength, they'e really referring to Augmentations (with a capital "A") meaning other cyberware and bioware.  Really they're just saying you can't use muscle aug and muscle replacement at the same time.  It's also probably against RAW, but I see no reason why an adrenaline pump wouldn't work with any of the above, either. 

Anyway, there's not supposed to be any trouble combining any of that with magic, regardless of whether they screwed up on the exact wording (I don't think they did, actually).  That's why the +4 limit exists, really.  You can stack anything you want (specific exemptions abound, but are usually pretty specific), as long as the bonus is less +4, total. 

[Tarislar]

Say a mage with willpower 5 casts increase attribute [willpower] on himself and rolls 5 successes. Is his willpower now 5(9) or 5(10) ?

5(9)
4 is the max you can "increase" outside of spending karma.

let's say the party's mage casts increase attribute [strength] on the other runner at force 4 and gets 3 successes.

• Does the spell combine with the bioware giving a cumulative bonus which is capped at +4 giving a final strength of 2(6)?
• Does the spell effectively override the bioware with only the largest bonus of +3 being applied since they aren't cumulative and the runner ends up with a final strength of 2(5)?

This one here can be debated as the other 2 guys have both given different answers.
Myself I'm inclined to say 2(5) given the way they have declared in other areas that Bio, Cyber, Magic, & Drugs are ALL "Augmentations", but I can see now SP is reading it even if I'm not sure I agree.  It is, as I said, open to debate.
Either way the max is +4 for sure.

And the wording from Bio to Cyber is IMHO supposed to be the same thing even if you can try to read it differently it isn't IMHO.

[Raven2049]

my understanding was that magic was its own "thing" as is drugs and in the example given it would be option 1, beings as its a temporary increase (barring any metamagics, im looking at you quickining  )

otherwise how could a troll with augmented stats of
BOD: 10(14) AGI: 5(9) REA: 5(9) STR: 10(14)

benefit from kamikaze? (aside from the rest of the increases listed in the book)



ignore that, spent all that time writing it and once i read the spell i thought "that was a waste of time"

INCREASE [ATTRIBUTE]
(ESSENCE)
Type: P Range: T
Duration: S Drain: F – 3
This spell increases an Attribute (natural or augmented) on a voluntary subject. A version of this spell exists for each Physical and Mental attribute, but not for
Special Attributes (Initiative, Edge, Essence, Magic, or
Resonance). The Force of the spell must equal or exceed
the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected.
The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits
scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits
that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented
maximum are ignored). Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.
Note that increasing an Attribute may affect other
derived statistics (Increase Reaction also affects Initiative, for example, while Increase Body adds extra boxes
to the character’s Physical Condition Monitor for as long
as the spell lasts)

Emphasis mine, so in other words, yes #2 is correct

EDIT read the options wrong, changing vote from 3 to 2

[Glyph]

Actually, I would go with 2), since the spell says "This spell increases an Attribute (natural or augmented) on a voluntary subject."  So the bonus would be cumulative, but still be capped at +4.

[Kincaid]

Yeah, I'd go with #2 as well.  You can get there by a number of roads, but +4 is the end of your journey.

[ProfGast]

actually, after seeing the spell text I switch my vote to 2.

[Xenon]

Not at Book now so can't give p for quote.

Augmentations (cyberware and bioware) are limited to natural rating +4 unless the augmentation explicitly state otherwise (like wireless reaction enhancers and wired Reflexes).

Magic enhancements such as spells and Adept powers are not limited to +4 unless the spell or power description explicit state otherwise (most spells and Adept powers do, but not all).

Drugs does not seem to be limited by +4 and cyberlimbs have attributes of their own.


If you ctrl-f "augmentation" and f3 through the pdf you'll notice that the book is actually pretty consistently talking about cyberware or bioware. Magic buffs are referred to as an increase, an enhancement etc.


As for compatibility; if one of them is incompatible with the other then you cannot benefit from both at the same time. Even if the other is compatible. You can have both but you need to pick which one to benefit you at any given time.



The spell in question combine fine with other magic enhancements (except other increase attribute spells), drugs and augmentations.

Pretty sure that the augmentation in question combine with magic enhancements and drugs; but not other augmentations.

The answer is that they combine up to a max of +4.

[Jayde Moon]

Xenon, can you give an example of an effect that allows an attribute to go above +4?

[Namikaze]

If you are already at an augmented maximum with something, let's say Agility, and then pop an Agility-boosting drug, the cap comes off.  You can go as high as you want with drugs.  Of course, they're temporary and they have nasty nasty side effects, but that's the tradeoff.  You can get truly superhuman with drugs, but only for a short while.

[Sir_Prometheus]

In case it wasn't obvious, I was voting for #2 as well.

If you are already at an augmented maximum with something, let's say Agility, and then pop an Agility-boosting drug, the cap comes off.  You can go as high as you want with drugs.  Of course, they're temporary and they have nasty nasty side effects, but that's the tradeoff.  You can get truly superhuman with drugs, but only for a short while.

Mur, based upon what are you saying drugs get around the +4 aug limit?  The Aug limit is meant to be a wide ranging, general purpose limit, with very few exceptions.  (cyberlimbs arguably aren't even an exception, they just have their own stats)  What rule indicates to you drugs do not follow the aug limit? 

[Namikaze]

with very few exceptions.

Which include drugs.

[Xenon]

Xenon, can you give an example of an effect that allows an attribute to go above +4?

You probably have to combine the drugs with other drugs¹ or with an attribute increase that is not explicitly limited at +4. Increase attribute spell with 4 hits will for example only give you +2 if you get an increase of +2 from another source, like a drug. This pretty much rule out all augmentations (since they are all limited to the augmentation max unless it specifically say otherwise) and most magical enhancements (since almost all of them explicitly say they obey the augmentation max of +4).

Light Body can exceed +4 to Agility on its own. It is also compatible with Kamikaze. Rapid Healing can exceed +4 to Body on its own. It too is compatible with Kamikaze. Improved Reflexes¹ does not have a limit on Reaction and can be combined with Cram, Jazz and Novacoke to potentially reach +6. You can stack willpower above the +4 limit by using a combination¹ of Deepweed, Kamikaze, Nitro and Zen at the same time.

There are many augmentations (cyberware and bioware) beyond this that are compatible with augmentations, spells and drugs as well as magic boosts (spells and adept powers) that are compatible with augmentations, spells and drugs.
- but I think i listed the very few exceptions that let you break the +4 limit.....

¹ this is assuming you even can combine the effects from various drugs at the same time. I never really got around to read the addiction and drug effect part of the rules.....

Mur, based upon what are you saying drugs get around the +4 aug limit?  The Aug limit is meant to be a wide ranging, general purpose limit, with very few exceptions.  (cyberlimbs arguably aren't even an exception, they just have their own stats)  What rule indicates to you drugs do not follow the aug limit? 

This would be based upon the notation that Augmentation = Cyberweare and Bioware only and that the Augmentation max is a limit that by default only applies to Augmentations (cyberware and bioware). That all other increases (like magic and drugs) all explicitly mention if they too obey the same +4 blanket rule that applies to all cyberware and bioware. Most spells and adept powers do. No drugs do.

Drugs are probably compatible with everything except augmentations and magic that are explicitly not compatible with any other increases... such as Synaptic booster, Reaction Enhancers and Cyberlimbs.

[Jayde Moon]

Thanks, all!