[Sir_Prometheus]

with very few exceptions.

Which include drugs.

So you said, but you failed to say why.

[Namikaze]

with very few exceptions.

Which include drugs.

So you said, but you failed to say why.

Because you never asked why.  If you want to do some searching, you can find all you need here on the forums..  But Xenon explained it better than I could have:

Xenon, can you give an example of an effect that allows an attribute to go above +4?

You probably have to combine the drugs with other drugs¹ or with an attribute increase that is not explicitly limited at +4. Increase attribute spell with 4 hits will for example only give you +2 if you get an increase of +2 from another source, like a drug. This pretty much rule out all augmentations (since they are all limited to the augmentation max unless it specifically say otherwise) and most magical enhancements (since almost all of them explicitly say they obey the augmentation max of +4).

Light Body can exceed +4 to Agility on its own. It is also compatible with Kamikaze. Rapid Healing can exceed +4 to Body on its own. It too is compatible with Kamikaze. Improved Reflexes¹ does not have a limit on Reaction and can be combined with Cram, Jazz and Novacoke to potentially reach +6. You can stack willpower above the +4 limit by using a combination¹ of Deepweed, Kamikaze, Nitro and Zen at the same time.

There are many augmentations (cyberware and bioware) beyond this that are compatible with augmentations, spells and drugs as well as magic boosts (spells and adept powers) that are compatible with augmentations, spells and drugs.
- but I think i listed the very few exceptions that let you break the +4 limit.....

¹ this is assuming you even can combine the effects from various drugs at the same time. I never really got around to read the addiction and drug effect part of the rules.....

Mur, based upon what are you saying drugs get around the +4 aug limit?  The Aug limit is meant to be a wide ranging, general purpose limit, with very few exceptions.  (cyberlimbs arguably aren't even an exception, they just have their own stats)  What rule indicates to you drugs do not follow the aug limit? 

This would be based upon the notation that Augmentation = Cyberweare and Bioware only and that the Augmentation max is a limit that by default only applies to Augmentations (cyberware and bioware). That all other increases (like magic and drugs) all explicitly mention if they too obey the same +4 blanket rule that applies to all cyberware and bioware. Most spells and adept powers do. No drugs do.

Drugs are probably compatible with everything except augmentations and magic that are explicitly not compatible with any other increases... such as Synaptic booster, Reaction Enhancers and Cyberlimbs.

[Sir_Prometheus]

But I did, actually:

Mur, based upon what are you saying drugs get around the +4 aug limit?  The Aug limit is meant to be a wide ranging, general purpose limit, with very few exceptions.  (cyberlimbs arguably aren't even an exception, they just have their own stats)  What rule indicates to you drugs do not follow the aug limit?

Regardless, I don't buy it, I know Cyberware and bioware is mentioned in the rule description on page 94, but it seems clearly intended as, and is used and cited as, a more or less universal limit. 

[Senko]

I did not know about the blanket +4 limit I'm now wondering if I can sustain enough spells to magically hit that limit on all stats. Have to be a very high initiate I think, shame there's no spell to boost all physical or all mental stats.

[Namikaze]

Regardless, I don't buy it

Of course you don't.  You don't believe anything I say to be truth.  So here, I did the search for you:

- Augmented Maximum: p94: This is your natural (unboosted) Attribute value + 4, NOT your racial maximum + 4. Note that this limit only applies to Augmentations ('Ware), and anything else that actively states they obey Augmented Maximum, like the magical abilities/spells that raise Attributes. This means that Drugs, by confirmed developer intent, ignore it.

So in other words you're saying that Wired Reflexes and Increased Reflexes do stack because Augmentation in the wired reflexes text only refers to cybernetic augmentations?

Do you intend the corollary to this that the augmented maximum only applies to Cybernetic augmentation and that magical augmentation (or whatever you've decided to call it since we can't now call it augmentation) is completely uncapped?

Yes, followed by no. You can't get more than 5D6 in Initiative Dice no matter what your source.

However, it has been stated in the Missions FAQ that drugs are limited to the augmented maximum.  However, this applies only to Missions and may or may not affect a home game.  Honestly, there's plenty of evidence to argue both sides.  So rather than continue doing that (people on this forum have literally been arguing this since 5th Edition released) I will simply point out that there appears to be a debate between developers over this very rule.  So take it all with a grain of salt.

[Lucean]

To be fair, until the change to the Missions FAQ it was quite clear that drugs and spells like Shapechange or effects like Possession/Inhabitation didn't care for augmented maximum, because of p. 94 and Cyberware and Bioware being defined as augmentations in the Gear section.
I see the change to the Missions FAQ as an attempt to streamline the rules and improve ease of play with applying a general cap of +4 regardless of source. Makes it easier overall but takes some interesting options away.

[Darzil]

I see the change to the Missions FAQ as an attempt to streamline the rules and improve ease of play with applying a general cap of +4 regardless of source. Makes it easier overall but takes some interesting options away.

I see it as dealing with the fact that using drugs in a one off mission has few downsides compared to using it in a campaign, and taking away some of the upside is a way to balance that.

[Sir_Prometheus]

It sounds to me like everything is supposed to be limited to +4, and most of what people are seeing as "exceptions" is just poor editing, as per usual.

The upside to drugs is that they're cheap as hell. 

[Lucean]

It sounds to me like everything is supposed to be limited to +4, and most of what people are seeing as "exceptions" is just poor editing, as per usual.

No, it's not as has been stated multiple times already. Darzil's reasoning may be the best concerning the change for missions.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Fortunately, stating a thing multiple times doesn't make it any more true than stating it once.  (Or, any less for that matter.)

The +4 limit is cited so many times, consistently, throughout the book, both for magic powers as well as cyberware, you really have to look for where it is specifically excepted -- such as with cyberlimbs. 

A probably better explanation for the Missions FAQ is that the missiosn FAQ is better kept up with than the main rules FAQ/errata (which even on a second printing, is quite poor).

[Namikaze]

Either way, it's obvious that there's a disconnect between the developers.  One developer, I believe it was Aaron, stated that the augmentation maximum only applied to augmentations (cyberware and bioware), unless specifically stated (as is the case in most spells and adept powers).  Because drugs don't have that limitation stated, it was his opinion that the augmentation maximum did not apply to them.  Obviously Bull sees this differently and believes that all things that change your stats are augmentations, including drugs and all spells (even those without the limitations explicitly stated).  Perhaps Bull's interpretation should be in a main book errata, but we don't know for sure.  Aaron seems to not be present on the forums much, so asking him would probably prove fruitless.  So for the time being, I think the safe thing to do is talk to the GM and see which interpretation they go with.  Personally, I like the idea that drugs and some magic can break the limit.

[Kincaid]

Although I can totally understand why Bull limited things in an open play environment like Missions, I like having drugs break the limit since it incentivizes players to at least consider the risks of addiction, which are much more easily managed (from a GM point of view) at a regular table.

[Tarislar]

Honestly, I think drugs are still pretty useful even when they don't get to break the +4 cap.
Because lets face it, how easy is it to get the +4 cap anyway ?
For most methods if you are picking up a +2 then it is nice if you can pick up another +1/+2 via Drugs & have it stack.

I mean, short of Increase Attribute spells where 4 successes is fairly common on 12 dice, most Cyber, Bio, Chemical, Adept Boosts are all going to give lower bonuses than +4.  The spells they are usually temporary, they need to be Sustained via Dice Penalty, Foci, or Quickening.

My thought is that the various options to boost a stat should all stack w/ each other, but, that the +4 limit should be in place.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I think everyone's forgetting that drugs are like $50, maybe a couple hundred a dose.  Compared to things like cyberware, bioware, and even magic (considering the limited resources of drain, knowing the spell, karma on sustaining foci or quickening, etc.) drugs are basically free.  That's really all the motivation to use them people need. 

[Jayde Moon]

Cut and dried for missions, but I also like the idea of drugs breaking the cap.

Yes, they are cheap, but a good table should be playing up the addiction tables and role playing the effects.  Eventually, getting that little boost is going to cost you.  House rules, y'know?  YMMV