[Glaive]

So I've noticed its conventional wisdom around hear that Automatics is the best guns still because it lets you use the supposedly concealable machine pistol. Well I've been thinking about the numbers, and I'm starting to question just how concealable they really are.

Lets take the average non-samurai runner. Deckers, mages, some riggers, etc. Characters who probably never invested in AGI and have it at 3. If they default on a roll to conceal a Steyr TMP, They've got two dice. The average human being at this point has a 50/50 at spotting that thing at a casual glance! Not a fair comparison though, all things considering.

So lets up the ante a bit. Our non-sam decides it might be prudent to know what the hell he's doing and gets some palming training, specialized in hiding shit. Now he's got 6 dice to stow that TMP. Vs the average citizen, its 6 dice on 2. Pretty damn good odds, unless our citizen is casually perceptive. Its not too unreasonable to assume that some of us here have 1 perception, so not defaulting on those rolls means they'd have 4 dice. 6 on 4 is still advantageous, but personally I tend to get nervous when my lead is only 2 dice, especially on a roll that can blow my cover! And this is still average citizens we're talking about! A bit of crappy corporate training (prof-2 corporate security) and that 4 bumps to a 5, making that comparison even closer! Get some experience on an actual street (prof-3 police patrols), and now you've got a 6, meaning that a guy with a gun and cuffs now has you in a 50/50.

At this point, the concealed carry holster is an absolute fucking must! And even still, while the 6 on 3 is okay, I've already talked about how I'm not fine with 6 on 4. Now do this with a light pistol, and you're pulling 6 on 1 with the corp sec and 6 on 2 with the cops. MUCH better! Do it with a holdout, and these people literally have no dice!

Now if you're a nova hot street sam, you're in much better shape...kinda. Lets be honest here, how many street sams actually consider palming? So lets consider a minmaxed badass with 9 AGI who stows is TMP with 8 dice. Yeah, remember what I said about 2 dice leads? 8 on 6 with cops is alright, and better with corp sec with 8 on 5. Once again, concealed holster that shit! I think I could live with 8 on 4/3. Or better yet, consider palming with a specialty! knock that 8 up to a 12, baby! 12 on 4/3 is much better! Shit, at this rate I can almost see what people are saying 'bout machine pistols not sucking at this.

But then lets get serious. The most deadly foes to shadowrunners sure as shit aren't beat cops (even if they are some of the most common), but even their lieutenants give us trouble! The professional rating 3 lieutenant pulls 10 dice on perception checks! OUCH! For all those sams who never considered palming, they're dice pool here is even with the concealable holster! And while 12 on 8 is good, it still makes me sweat bullets a bit. If given the choice, I'd much rather be packing a holdout to get that down to 12 on 4. Though at this point I should mention that physically patting a person down cuts concealment in half, so even that holdout is giving us a 12 on 7. Oh, and don't get me started on the non-sams! A concealed holster for your TMP against a pro will get you a 6 on 8 or a 2 on 8 for the untrained plebs! Have fun getting your shit found!

Its gunna take a person who really cares to make concealing work against the most determined security. AGI 9, Palming (concealing) 5 (7) provides 16 dice, giving our pat down victim a 16 on 7 with a concealed holstered holdout. Now those are odds I can live with.

So in conclusion, while particularly agile characters might regularly sneak Steyr TMPs past beat cops and corp sec, a determined search by an actual professional will give you a run for your money. As for the rest of us, I say don't bother. The average person with no clue what they're doing will get spotted by average people with no clue what they're doing, and getting a clue will only provide a marginal benefit against people who have a clue. I might be in your best interest to just pack a smaller gun.

[Namikaze]

I've noticed individual runners tend to lean heavily toward stealth or just all-out assault.  The latter group figures that if they're going to get seen and/or caught anyway they might as well be armed for the occasion.  The former group however, still almost never invests in Palming.  This might be a localized issue, a result of me not putting enough emphasis on Palming.  Or it could be a bigger issue, caused by a factor I can't necessarily perceive (failed Perception test).  But you bring up some good points - if you're going the stealthy route, a pistol is an absolute must where a machine pistol (while comparatively more concealable) is almost certainly over the line for the stealthiest of players.  Most people I think will fall somewhere in the middle - concealed holster (because quick draw is nice but not a passive benefit), Palming probably around 2 or 3, Agility of 3 or 4.  That gives somewhere between 5 and 7 dice for hiding the thing.  Still hard to do consistently against professionals though.  Which is one of the disadvantages of Automatics anyway - they're versatile and powerful weapons, but they can't be concealed for crap.

[Reaver]

it always boils down to the player.

Some players go the stealth route and pack nothing up holdouts/light pistols.

Others opt for ammo and damage and thus trade off a machine pistol (with the greater range and ammo cap).

One thing to point out that never really gets covered much is ammo.

I have seen some pretty ridiculous things in my time. like the guy who carried a hold out pistol. And 500 rounds of EACH ammo type AT ALL TIMES. So basically this guy was walking would with a hold  out pistol and... 150 clips of ammo!!! Now, I am not a security guard, but if I was and I was in charge of a check point and if ANYONE had a clip of ammo on them, I would be giving them an extras special look over, just to make sure (let alone 150 clips of ammo!).

****

But really it boils down also to the GM.... Most GMs seem to take a liberal view of small arms and hiding them... But as your numbers point out, hiding it may not be as easy as most GMs give it a pass for...

[Lusis]

Machine pistols don't pack the punch anyway. IMO:

If you want burst fire and power, get a Savalette Guardian.

If you want BF and concealability, get a Fichetti Executive Action

If you want power and concealability, a Colt Agent Special.

YMMV.

[MijRai]

Machine pistols don't pack the punch anyway. IMO:

If you want burst fire and power, get a Savalette Guardian.

If you want BF and concealability, get a Fichetti Executive Action

If you want power and concealability, a Colt Agent Special.

YMMV.

For the most part, I agree; what machine pistols can bring to the fight is automatic fire.  Only certain models give you FA, but the ones that do are completely worth it, if only to lay down suppressive fire.  It's one of the most useful things a non-combat focused character can throw into a fight (besides grenades or niche things like magic or matrix shenanigans). 

[Lusis]

Suppression is just wasted ammo. If your going to shoot, shoot to kill.

If you don't want to kill, get a taser or a Neurostun grenade.

Machine Guns are for suppression.

Just my .02¥.

[Darzil]

So. considering a large smuggling compartment has -10 concealability and can hold a heavy pistol or small SMG, how large is a machine pistol compared to them? Suddenly it looks like a significant addition to a cyberarm!

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Suppression is great, the no recoil, penalties to all in the cone of fire, plus base (not staged) damage is great. If nothing else it slows down the enemy long enough to get out. As far as machine pistols go, one of the best is the Remington Suppressor ( acc 6 7p -1 AP 15 mag) only issue is no full auto (SA/BF), but come with a suppressor ($500 for free and removable), not restricted, and around ¥700 at most. Hits like a weak heavy pistol, similar magazine size as light pistols. Similar stats as Colt Government 2066, but with BF and a suppressor for an extra ¥375 and one less availability (6R) same concealability.

[Kincaid]

So. considering a large smuggling compartment has -10 concealability and can hold a heavy pistol or small SMG, how large is a machine pistol compared to them? Suddenly it looks like a significant addition to a cyberarm!

"Nothing bigger than a light pistol," unfortunately (I say this because my main PC has one) will fit in a skin pocket.  Colt Agents for everyone!

[Darzil]

"Nothing bigger than a light pistol," unfortunately (I say this because my main PC has one) will fit in a skin pocket.  Colt Agents for everyone!

That's the bodyware one, not the large smuggling one you can fit in a cyberlimb (pg457 on my PDF, under cyberlimb accessories).

[Namikaze]

So. considering a large smuggling compartment has -10 concealability and can hold a heavy pistol or small SMG, how large is a machine pistol compared to them? Suddenly it looks like a significant addition to a cyberarm!

"Nothing bigger than a light pistol," unfortunately (I say this because my main PC has one) will fit in a skin pocket.  Colt Agents for everyone!

That's the bodyware one, not the large smuggling one you can fit in a cyberlimb (pg457 on my PDF, under cyberlimb accessories).

Correct-amundo.  A machine pistol is definitely smaller than a SMG.  A SMG is generally held with two hands, though it can be used with one hand in a pinch.  "Small SMG" to me means the size of a MAC-10 or smaller.  Technically a MAC-10 is a machine pistol, but it straddles the line.

[Glaive]

So. considering a large smuggling compartment has -10 concealability and can hold a heavy pistol or small SMG, how large is a machine pistol compared to them? Suddenly it looks like a significant addition to a cyberarm!

Now I've got images of some beefy sam pulling an ingram smartgun out of his leg, Robocop style!

And on another note, can you get concealed holsters for bigger guns? It just hit me that if you can, then combining with the lined duster might let you pull some nasty concealing shenanigans! You could conceivably conceal a bullpup assault rifle at 0, or a full sized one at +2. Mr dedicated conceal could sneak a fucking AK into a shopping mall with a 16 on 8, and that's assuming some reasonably competent mall cops!

[Reaver]

While they do make rifle holsters, they would do nothing to help hide the rifle, nor make it easily deployed.

Rifle holsters are usually used to secure the rifle to an ATV or horse for transport, and thus are usually a "reach in" through the stock area design.

[Lusis]

So. considering a large smuggling compartment has -10 concealability and can hold a heavy pistol or small SMG, how large is a machine pistol compared to them? Suddenly it looks like a significant addition to a cyberarm!

"Nothing bigger than a light pistol," unfortunately (I say this because my main PC has one) will fit in a skin pocket.  Colt Agents for everyone!

That's the bodyware one, not the large smuggling one you can fit in a cyberlimb (pg457 on my PDF, under cyberlimb accessories).

Correct-amundo.  A machine pistol is definitely smaller than a SMG.  A SMG is generally held with two hands, though it can be used with one hand in a pinch.  "Small SMG" to me means the size of a MAC-10 or smaller.  Technically a MAC-10 is a machine pistol, but it straddles the line.

Glock 18C.

[Lusis]

Now I've got images of some beefy sam pulling an ingram smartgun out of his leg, Robocop style!

And on another note, can you get concealed holsters for bigger guns? It just hit me that if you can, then combining with the lined duster might let you pull some nasty concealing shenanigans! You could conceivably conceal a bullpup assault rifle at 0, or a full sized one at +2. Mr dedicated conceal could sneak a fucking AK into a shopping mall with a 16 on 8, and that's assuming some reasonably competent mall cops!

Cyber holsters can only hold machine pistols or smaller.

Game-wise, a sling and a lined coat is what you need to conceal a rifle. Although not all that well.