[Medicineman]

 Because we're discussiong it right now in Germany :
Does anybody of You Guys know ( or has a plausible explanation) why Corporate SIN is worth those massive 25 Points ?
ImO it makes more sense
to rate them:
National SIN 5
Lim. Corp SIN 10
Corp SIN 15
and Criminal SIN 20

What Do You think ?

with a SINful Dance
Medicineman

[DigitalZombie]

I think your listing would make more sense too.
I also find it odd how the tax payment system works, especially corp SIN requires less payment than some of the others, yet gives more karma.

I could imagine that the reasoning behind the high karma gain would be that other runners wouldnt trust "one of those guys" but then again, with every runner running around with a bunch of fake SINs how would they know that his SIN is correct? and not just a high rating fake?

Jack the hacker: w00t guyz I just found out that Critical glitch is actually an ares corp scumbag!!
Alice the troll: like ohmigawd! thats horrible news how did you find out jack the hacker/John Doe of UCAS/Jim Bob from Horizon/Laime Jannister from PCC?
Jack the hacker: I saw one of his 4 SINs...
Alice the troll: ...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Because you're not standing in the middle of UCAS-Land, or CorpLand, or where-ever you are; you're standing in the middle of the Shadows, where five out of ten of your neighbors are orks, nine of ten are SINless, and ten of ten are envious / hate those who they perceive as holding them down, e.g. those who are lording it over them in the nations (national SIN) and ESPECIALLY the corporations.

You can get by with a National SIN; 'hey, I had a legitimate birth, is all.I had to flee to the shadows'.  Your street rep can even go up because you have a Criminal SIN; 'Yeah, I did time.'  But people will avoid you, spit at you, throw rotten food / rocks at you, dump their 'honeybucket' full of feces in your window, and all the rest should you turn out to be one of the Evil Overlords, aka someone with a Corporate SIN.  Some people may even think you're spying on them for your corporate masters (after all, your SIN is still valid, right?  So you must still be one of their bootlickers), and so it can get you killed.

Having a criminal SIN is only a problem if you get caught, or if you have to broadcast an unassailable SIN (which a valid not-fake SIN is) for some reason, and you're associating with upright members of society.

[Medicineman]

You can get by with a National SIN;

or with a Fake SIN
A Char that shows his real Corp SIN to the SINless ist a candidate for the Darwin Award and anybody with a higer Intelligence than molded Bread Is using only his Fake SIN.
And since those Chars don't have their Corp SIN Number Tattoed on their Forehead its quite difficult for a SINLess to spot someone with a Corp SIN (don't You think ? )
Your post is not really helping me/us as You just repeat the official Lines that make no sense to Me/us

But people will avoid you, spit at you, throw rotten food / rocks at you, dump their 'honeybucket' full of feces in your window

IF They find out ?
 But how are they

Having a criminal SIN is only a problem if you get caught,

ImO a criminal SIn is much more restrictive , at least in the German BBB (must transmit his SIN everytime failure = Arrest,no admittance in certain Shops, no Legal Jobs,arrest is due anytime, Prejustice (deadly in combination with being an Ork or Troll) Guilty until proven Innocentand much much more Hassle for someone with a Criminal SIN )
I just read it again and a Criminal SIN is really a Pain in the Ass for every Runner

with a Painfull Dance
Medicineman

[Medicineman]

2 of my Chars have Corp SIN because it's "Easy Money" and one even has Magic D Priority  but an Essence of 2.x
because its (for the first Time in 5 Editions) possible to buy up Your Magic even if You're MAG is 0 (or Below).It seems there is a lot of "cheese " in 5th Ed RAW

with a cheesy Dance
Medicineman

[firebug]

Not to mention, that's not Corporate Limited.  That's "born and raised in the corp, made to be the perfect wageslave".  You were among the people the corp actually lets grow in the company.  It's very likely you know things the corporation doesn't want you to tell others.

You're corporate property.  They may want their property back at some point.  Especially if it knows a thing or two about some upcoming products.  And if they can't have it...  They can at least make sure nobody else can.

And keep in mind, nobody with a Corporate SIN just "joins" the shadows.  Why would they?  You're among the privileged people who are nearly guaranteed a very high-paying job and a good amount of power because of it.  You know the very wealthy, very powerful Mr. Johnson's that runners are always working for?  Those are the people with Corporate SINs.

It says in the quality, if you ended up in the shadows, it's because something went down and you were in the middle of it.  Whether it's someone framing you for a big white-collar crime or a personal fuck-up that would have cost you everything-- but you escaped with little more than your life.

Not only are you in serious trouble if you get enough public awareness that your corp finds you again, but if you're caught running against them, they have no reason not to assume you'll probably do more against them, possibly including selling company secrets you learned.

You were raised on nothing but corporate propaganda.  Your parents were wageslaves who were born and raised there.  You were fed their food, you watched the trids they wanted you to watch, you went to their schools and learned their versions of everything.  Even if you somehow managed to escape the brainwashing entirely, without any kind of "lingering loyalty", nobody is going to believe that you did.  You were molded from birth to be a model citizen.  If a runner, especially one who grew up SINless, finds out you're corp-born, they will assume the worst about you, and no amount of denial will prove a thing.

Contacts and fixers may be hesitant to work with you, unsure if you're going to sell them out to your corp.  Even if they trust you personally, there's no guarantee you're not bugged or watched--  You might not even be in on it, that's how insidious the corps are.

And the corp will be watching you.

The people around you don't need to know for it to be a problem.  But as for how?  Well, there's gonna be signs.  Johnsons you may know personally or who may know you.  Corporate squads sent after you.  Reluctance to work against your corp, or indepth knowledge of your corp.

It's not hard to find someone's real SIN.  That's the whole reason you try to stop using it, because it's easily connected to you.  If someone who knows you in person wants to, they can look up your real SIN with a bit of work.  You can't be tracked as easily with it (because you've stopped using it and leaving a trail with it) but it's still there, with your face on it and your DNA and your name.

[PiXeL01]

In many cases I actually see having a real SIN as an advantage. It means you'll have access to many areas where sinless can't go and won't be harassed, and don't have to worry about the authorities burning your sin.
However the way the qualities are written being a SINner is a death sentence.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Medicineman, I get the sense that you (and those you represent) play as though the Sixth World were a static thing, filled with isolated elements - that what you have and are and do are seperated from other people.  I'm sure that works for you, but Shadowrun as a game is intended to be interlocking, mutable and mutating, with interactions and changes depending on who the characters are and what they do.  In this case, we're talking about a SIN - a Full Corporate SIN.

While I don't agree with firebug that Full Corporate SINners universally reside in the highest strata of society (because I believe, and I think rightly, that there are Full Corporate SINners who are janitors and dishwashers - who else is going to be trusted enough to do the scutwork in the high-security corporate HQ than someone who's spent much of their life inside the corp?) I think you underestimate the general connectivity - and degree of interest - of people in the world of Shadowrun.  It doesn't take someone to scan your SIN for them to find out about you; lift a hair or a spit sample, and you have DNA.  Get a glass, and you have a fingerprint.  Strike up a conversation, and you have a voiceprint.  Then go to someone who knows someone - your local 'get-things' guy, who may be two steps below a real fixer, but he does know a real fixer - and turn things over.  Your teammates might be interested enough to do this; in my games, your fixer definitely is.

'Cause see, scanning a broadcasting SIN isn't the only way to check someone out.  You can feed the above information - DNA scan, fingerprint, voiceprint, a retinal scan if you can get it - into a SIN query, and see what comes out the other end.  You'll have false positives, sure - and you might get every single fake SIN the guy has - but only a few SINs are going to pop up on all of those scans, and only one is likely to look Just Like The Guy In 6-D.  So now your fixer / fixer wannabe / neighbor / teammate knows.  And maybe he tells someone, or tucks the info away in a file; maybe the word gets out.  Maybe you piss him off, and he lets the word get out.  Then again, maybe he doesn't - but when (not if, but when) he does, your life expectancy might be measured in hours instead of years.

Add into this the fact that if you're in the shadows and you have a Corporate SIN, any time a query actually returns your SIN, it's going to send up red flags to corporate security.  "Who asked?  Where are they?  How close a match to the SIN of Wanted-For-Questioning Man is the information?  Did they include an image?  Most importantly, how soon can we get someone down there to take a look?"  If word gets around that a Shiawase snoop is asking a few pointed questions about the lithe girl in 5-B, people are going to start paying attention.  And when - again, not if, but when - that information gets attached to You, Yes, You There Behind the Woodshed, Stand Still Lassie, not only is your ex-corp going to be gunning for you, but you won't be able to find a safe haven in the shadows for less than double the going price.

So essentially, a Full Corporate SIN means you get it from both sides.  Being a known criminal in the shadows?  Hell, that's just par for the course ...

[DigitalZombie]

@Wyrm Ouroboros
That sounds a lot like a runner would be in big trouble if he ever were to acquire a fake rating 6 SIN. Because the opposing force might just fail to beat it, and thus believe its correct.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... why?  Then you wind up with two apparently-real SINs with the same information (presuming your SIN-checker can take all that information, because if it can't it isn't a Rating 6 anyhow) which would require human intervention anyhow.  Presumably, however, an organization isn't going to create (or going to be able to create) SINs that ping as Full Corporate Citizens.  But hey, they may ... and yeah, then you MIGHT just have problems.  Sounds like a fun gaming session, trying to prove to your associates and neighbors that your Fake Full Corporate SIN really IS fake, despite passing several different checkers ...

[firebug]

Such a thing as "going too deep under cover".

[Medicineman]

Medicineman, I get the sense that you (and those you represent) play as though the Sixth World were a static thing, filled with isolated elements

Your Senses betray You (Young Padawan - SCNR  )
Its most important for Me to interact in a World that makes sense and because of this I (We) have so much trouble accepting this Neg Qual with this immense Point Value

It doesn't take someone to scan your SIN for them to find out about you; lift a hair or a spit sample, and you have DNA.  Get a glass, and you have a fingerprint.

thats quite true, but since my Char is not a convicted Criminal , its of No Use.
If You as an american commits a Crime in Russia (f.E.) and the Russian Cops get your DNA what good does it to them ?

 

You can feed the above information - DNA scan, fingerprint, voiceprint, a retinal scan if you can get it - into a SIN query, and see what comes out the other end.

I (otoh) get the Impression that You're playing a kind of.... Minority Report Shadowrun, where The Cops & Corps are Omnipotent ,Know everything and get every Information instantly.
 I prefer to play .... more like a Judge Dredd or Robocop Shadowrun where there is hardly a chance for a SINles (even if he knows a good fixer) to find out about other IDs (at least not the way You describe it )
I think thats the main difference. A different Point of View on the SR World and how it works out for the Chars

You can feed the above information - DNA scan, fingerprint, voiceprint, a retinal scan if you can get it - into a SIN query, and see what comes out the other end.  You'll have false positives, sure - and you might get every single fake SIN the guy has - but only a few SINs are going to pop up on all of those scans, and only one is likely to look Just Like The Guy In 6-D.

ImO this turns the Base Idea of a fake SIN/ ID Ad Absurdum.
If this where true in Shadowrun NO Fake SIN would work and each and every Shadowrunner's ID would bust and they'll all end up Dead or in Jail

with a different Dance
Medicienman

 

[ZeConster]

Because we're discussiong it right now in Germany :
Does anybody of You Guys know ( or has a plausible explanation) why Corporate SIN is worth those massive 25 Points ?

Because you're not supposed to downplay the "serious injury and death are real possibilities" part when people find out you have a Corporate Born SIN. Having a Corporate Born SIN means you need to go to serious lenghts to keep your real identity hidden.


Wyrm: even if you have access to the Global SIN Registry, you still won't be able to find out someone has a Corporate Born SIN - it's deliberately not listed in there. You'd need access to their megacorp's records to verify any suspicions you may have.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The different sin values other than criminal don't make sense. The whole if people find out you have a corp sin they kill you thing is moronic in itself. Too many people work for corps and would have corporate sins for this to be a remotely realistic idea. The reaction of a sinless would 99% of the time be s dude what happened that sucks. Not a he must be a double agent. Stories of corps abusing their own and discarding them are legion. So you fitting in if a sinless found out won't be an issue in pretty much any edition other than 5th where they try to come up with an excuse why this quality is 25 points.

Sins should be like gremlins they increase the chance using something fails. Increase the critical fail rate or increase the dice pool of the oposition when using your fake sin.

[ZeConster]

Shinobi: People who work for corps (and are in fact born citizens from that corp) typically don't become Shadowrunners, so "there are a lot of people who work for corps" isn't a valid argument to support your premise. Finding out a fellow Shadowrunner (who, you may recall, earn most of their money by committing crimes against megacorps) is a member of a megacorp is a lot like being a drugdealer and finding out someone you work with is a fed.

On a semi-related note: could someone explain to me why people can just throw around terms like "moronic" when I basically got banned once for saying "no, your arguments are silly"?