[8-bit]

I never did understand why the SIN quality is even around. I would have thought that if you had a Corp Born SIN, you would have either been willingly sent into the Shadows (which makes sense), or you were pushed out because of something you did. In which case, why in the world would you still pay taxes (let alone report income) to your Corporation, and why haven't they slapped a Criminal SIN on you, because you are basically a rogue person with Corp secrets in your head.

Records on File always made much more sense to me.

[Shamie]

Well i am of the opinion that if a player took the 25 karma for the quality i as a dm have all the rights in the world to make it worthwhile.

Why it Gives that much? IRS agent are better armed than red samurais

Seriously though its a bad quality because its not universal. A big chunks of the downside of the quality depends on the game the dm is running and the attitude the players have to the game.

If the players have a we against the world mentality then the whole paranoia thing is null. Same for the whole, people around you can find out. To me the idea that you neibors are gonna get dna samples to check your id is silly but if that is your interpretation of the world of sr more power to you.

I believe the quality would be better in run faster than in the core

[Herr Brackhaus]

Wyrm: even if you have access to the Global SIN Registry, you still won't be able to find out someone has a Corporate Born SIN - it's deliberately not listed in there. You'd need access to their megacorp's records to verify any suspicions you may have.

Seconded; even if the party who gains access to an NPC's (or PC for that matter) DNA has access to a SIN scanner, how much information does that yield? I was under the impression that scanners simply gave a positive/negative result, unless the scanner beat a fake SIN in an opposed test in which case the SIN would be flagged as dirty (in the case of the scanner achieving one or more net hits) or an officer would be told to investigate further (tie).

I don't necessarily see how one could obtain all of the data tied to a SIN unless one had access to either the Global SIN Registry hosted on Zurich Orbital or one of the national or corporate SIN registries. To my mind, a SIN is just a string of alphanumeric characters, after all.

[Emperors Grace]

I don't know, I could see certain corps/criminal elements having the ability to do better background checks than RL and you can find out alot about people fairly easily in RL - especially if money's involved.

Overall, I think Wyrm's got the right idea.

Runners piss off powerful people with some regularity, it's only natural that some targets would start to do the legwork and commit time and resources to find them.

[PeterSmith]

I don't know, I could see certain corps/criminal elements having the ability to do better background checks than RL and you can find out alot about people fairly easily in RL - especially if money's involved.

This is more of a case of England calling up Germany in 1943 to ask them about one of Germany's citizens, rather than Joe Six-Pack trying to get a Wal-Mart job.

[Marcus]

As I see it you have two major issues, one it's an income tax. A lose of wealth is no joke. Two, your setting yourself and your group up for internal conflict. Corp Citizenship should be meaningful. It should include a certain level of loyalty to that corp, or at least indoctrination.  So ya wear that corps brands, you favor that corps points of view, it should create points of tension. It's written suggest that it should put the character life in danger in certain situations. A character loyalty should be questioned. Are they going to sell the team out?
Etc. Like all flaws if the GM doesn't purse them they have no value. But It is a flaw that can be made to equal the 25 karma it gives, with some effort, and if a player isn't willing to toe the line then its easy for it to become a number of other flaws. Criminal sin, hunted etc.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

*shrugs*  I play with the world as described, for the most part, with pretty much only simple logical extrapolations.  You CAN send a DNA query to the SIN registry; you could even send a DNA query to corporate databases, and here's the kicker: if that corporation is looking for your DNA target, and they have the information, they're going to let you get it - because they're going to trace you by that query, show up on your doorstep, and ask you to point out DNA Target Guy.  If you're connected, you might be able to do it on the down-low, but again, Medicineman (and others), you seem to be playing strictly by only what gear has been given, and not extrapolating it at all.

*shrugs again*  Play it how you want.  If it doesn't make sense, change it.  For me, it makes sense, though, and if you're arguing against my explanations, I get the sense that you don't want to make sense of the way it is, and you'd rather have it the way you want it.  If so, why not just have it the way you want it, and forego the frustration of this kind of debate??

[ZeConster]

Considering a Corporate Born SINner still has to pay taxes to their corp, I'd say they already know where you are. Your extrapolation assumes things I don't think are the case.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

A corporate-born SINner still has to pay 'taxes', framed as a percentage of their income.  What that percentage represents in RAW is indeed taxes - so you might say that yeah, you're still in good standing.  It doesn't necessarily make sense to me (and doesn't quite jive with the other part of the Quality), but then again, I ascribe to Critias's explanation of 'taxes' as being able to ALSO be interpreted as 'what I have to pay various people in order to keep the Man off my back'.  YMMV.

[gyrobot]

 

I never did understand why the SIN quality is even around. I would have thought that if you had a Corp Born SIN, you would have either been willingly sent into the Shadows (which makes sense), or you were pushed out because of something you did. In which case, why in the world would you still pay taxes (let alone report income) to your Corporation, and why haven't they slapped a Criminal SIN on you, because you are basically a rogue person with Corp secrets in your head.

Records on File always made much more sense to me.

Think Kane, they need you for "corporate downsizing" and other jobs that it's like an odd job and you have the skills. Or hell, Baka Dabora is a perfect demonstration of how to become a Corp Sinner.

[Herr Brackhaus]

*shrugs*  I play with the world as described, for the most part, with pretty much only simple logical extrapolations.  You CAN send a DNA query to the SIN registry; you could even send a DNA query to corporate databases, and here's the kicker: if that corporation is looking for your DNA target, and they have the information, they're going to let you get it - because they're going to trace you by that query, show up on your doorstep, and ask you to point out DNA Target Guy.  If you're connected, you might be able to do it on the down-low, but again, Medicineman (and others), you seem to be playing strictly by only what gear has been given, and not extrapolating it at all.

I would say that the eventuality you describe here is vastly diferrent from your previous description of how a runner could obtain sensitive information about another team mate or Johnson.

My issue with either is that access to such information should not, in my opinion, be so freely available because of the potential catastrophic consequences this could have for people like corporate born runners and Mr. Johnson, whoswhvery lives rest on keeping information about their past hidden.

That you further present an opinion as fact is what prompted me to respond in the first place.

*shrugs*
I guess I just prefer a sixth world where bureaucracy hinders the efforts of the powers that be as much as much as they in turn present a persistent and insurmountable threat to the people who work against them.

*shrugs again*  Play it how you want.  If it doesn't make sense, change it.  For me, it makes sense, though, and if you're arguing against my explanations, I get the sense that you don't want to make sense of the way it is, and you'd rather have it the way you want it.  If so, why not just have it the way you want it, and forego the frustration of this kind of debate??

If you find this to be frustrating, perhaps you should heed your own advice?

The reason I wanted to voice my opinion was to present an alternative point of view to the people who asked the question. The way you presented a runners ability to obtain highly sensitive data on his or her team mates with nothing but a DNA sample didn't mesh with my view of the setting or the technology in it, so I offered my own opinion as an alternate interpretation of the source material.

I feel there is room for both, not necessarily in the same fictional world at the same time but certainly for people to make up their own minds, and I have no issue saying so.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Shinobi: People who work for corps (and are in fact born citizens from that corp) typically don't become Shadowrunners, so "there are a lot of people who work for corps" isn't a valid argument to support your premise. Finding out a fellow Shadowrunner (who, you may recall, earn most of their money by committing crimes against megacorps) is a member of a megacorp is a lot like being a drugdealer and finding out someone you work with is a fed.

On a semi-related note: could someone explain to me why people can just throw around terms like "moronic" when I basically got banned once for saying "no, your arguments are silly"?

It's absolutely nothing like being a criminal and finding out bob on your team is s cop and is undercover. It's like being a criminal and finding out bob is from England and you now assume he is royalty. This is the first edition where they made that leap. Former company man was a archetype in previous editions.

The only reason people are making this claim is because the flaw says so. It has no ties to the setting and doesn't make any sense. It's like if they wrote a flaw blue eyes and had s line in it that said and as we all know people with blue eyes are evil and now because that ridiculous idea is in the flaw people here are accepting it as reality.

Oh and taxes really people you are on the effing run from the corp you are from. It's a train wreck of ridiculous concepts that people accept just because it's written.

[Medicineman]

Well i am of the opinion that if a player took the 25 karma for the quality i as a dm have all the rights in the world to make it worthwhile.

and these whooping 25 Points are part of our Problem !
 What If I'd tell You : I'd like to get that Neg Qual , but it's   worth only 15 Points. I  want it for 15 Points ?

This is more of a case of England calling up Germany in 1943 to ask them about one of Germany's citizens, rather than Joe Six-Pack trying to get a Wal-Mart job.

  Thumps up 
thats how I see the relationship between the different Megacorps and Gouvernments too (or maybe like in the 60' during the cold War ?!!)

A corporate-born SINner still has to pay 'taxes', framed as a percentage of their income.

From which Income ?
 I doubt that a shadowrunner deducts his Shadowrunning fees to the IRS ?
Highly unbeleiviable !

Former company man was a archetype in previous editions.

right, or former Company Mage.
It was a ...True tried (is that the right expression ?) concept of playing a Char who had connections to a Megacorps and who is now working in the Shadows.
this worked for 4 Editions and now (all of a sudden ) he's the black Sheep that no one trusts (even though he may have saved the Lifes of his Chummers )
I (We) don't get it either

with a different Dance
Medicineman

[Namikaze]

A corporate-born SINner still has to pay 'taxes', framed as a percentage of their income.

From which Income ?
 I doubt that a shadowrunner deducts his Shadowrunning fees to the IRS ?
Highly unbeleiviable !

There are literally a dozen threads on the topic of taxes for the various SINner qualities.  The consensus, confirmed by freelancers as well, is that they aren't "taxes" like those you'd pay to your government.  They're bribes to the right people, keeping the paperwork flowing, and the cost of keeping the corp off your back (somewhat).

[Medicineman]

They're bribes to the right people, keeping the paperwork flowing, and the cost of keeping the corp off your back (somewhat).

Ahhh, OK. 
that makes more sense (way more) than paying  Tax income
I'll tell it to my fellow Players.
Will this be part of an Erratta or is it a kind of ...Housefluff ?

with a fluffy Dance
Medicineman