[Namikaze]

I guess you could call it housefluff.  I kind of like that word actually.  It's fluff that should have been included, but likely won't be entered into errata because it's considered a relatively minor detail.

[Shinobi Killfist]

They're bribes to the right people, keeping the paperwork flowing, and the cost of keeping the corp off your back (somewhat).

Ahhh, OK. 
that makes more sense (way more) than paying  Tax income
I'll tell it to my fellow Players.
Will this be part of an Erratta or is it a kind of ...Housefluff ?

with a fluffy Dance
Medicineman

While better it still makes very little sense. The flaw is having a sin not pissing people off so much you have to continuously bribe people to stay off the radar.

It's like they came up with the flaws costs first and then kept adding enough mechanical and fluff problems until the cost was justified whether it made sense or not.

[DigitalZombie]

A fake SIN rating 6 has : alternate life, all statistics match, valid biometrics with samples, complete and entirely believable history (page 367) 
(I presume the biometrics are from the character itself because at fake SIN rating 5 it says its from another person, but rating 6 doesnt?)

I take that as meaning if a low loyalty fixer , and high connection: would run a query on a character he would first have to run it through the right mega corporation, and secondly if they really wanted to verify his DNA samples it could mean several things :
1: the character has a rating 6 Fake SIN
2: the character is a fully fledged corp member, but had a falling out with the corp since they were willing to part with information on one of their own people
3: the character is a fully fledged and loyal employee, and the corp sees no reason as to why not share data about their employees with non-corp affiliated personnel


In scenario 1 and 2 I see no reason as to why fellow runners should try to kill/hate you
I find scenario 3 to be highly unlikely, and would likely support a GM changing the flaw

I like the idea of the "taxes" being paying people to stay of the radar, but in that case I find it odd that a character would only pay 10% if he has the 25 point flaw, but 20% if he has a limited SIN or 15% for a national one.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

The reason I wanted to voice my opinion was to present an alternative point of view to the people who asked the question. The way you presented a runners ability to obtain highly sensitive data on his or her team mates with nothing but a DNA sample didn't mesh with my view of the setting or the technology in it, so I offered my own opinion as an alternate interpretation of the source material.

I feel there is room for both, not necessarily in the same fictional world at the same time but certainly for people to make up their own minds, and I have no issue saying so.

As you aren't the original poster, I feel no need to respond more than this to this part of your statement/query.

*shrugs*  I play with the world as described, for the most part, with pretty much only simple logical extrapolations.  You CAN send a DNA query to the SIN registry; you could even send a DNA query to corporate databases, and here's the kicker: if that corporation is looking for your DNA target, and they have the information, they're going to let you get it - because they're going to trace you by that query, show up on your doorstep, and ask you to point out DNA Target Guy.  If you're connected, you might be able to do it on the down-low, but again, Medicineman (and others), you seem to be playing strictly by only what gear has been given, and not extrapolating it at all.

I would say that the eventuality you describe here is vastly diferrent from your previous description of how a runner could obtain sensitive information about another team mate or Johnson.  My issue with either is that access to such information should not, in my opinion, be so freely available because of the potential catastrophic consequences this could have for people like corporate born runners and Mr. Johnson, whoswhvery lives rest on keeping information about their past hidden.

But it isn't different in the least.  My original statement may have left out details, but there's no difference between the two at all.  See, this is where I run into the issue of 'I've been playing this game for so long, what I'm telling you sounds like opinion but is 15-year-old fluff.'  Knowing and internalizing the game's background and in-character postings in the published game world in regards to SINs - or anything else! - makes me sound like when I say stuff like this, it sounds like it's my opinion, bullshit I make up on the spot, when it really ain't.  I may not remember precisely where it comes from, but it's in there, and if I absolutely had to track it down - for example, if I were writing officially about this - I would absolutely do so in order to confirm my sources and make sure it fit with the prior canon.  I don't generally do that, though, so because I don't quote book and page, it sounds like - as you say - opinion.

Additional details for people such as a Corporate Johnson would be similar to 'they let this information out on a strictly need-to-know basis, for the security of a valuable corporate asset'.  In addition, you seem to be presuming that nobody can send a query to a corporate SIN database; if that were true, then corporate citizens would get arrested strolling around outside their arcologies, because they aren't broadcasting a legal SIN.  In truth, SIN queries go to where the SIN says it originates from.  The first characters of a SIN give the SIN reader the origin - in essence, the database the reader needs to query to discover whether or not the SIN is valid.  Countries pretty much post theirs to their own national databases and to the global DB; criminal SINs wind up there too, because everyone wants to know that the Bad Guy is a Bad Guy. 

A reader, however, is going to look at system identification number 'SRKP823-1235-19273A-45F' and go poke at the Saeder-Krupp database.  While details of a corporate SIN aren't going to be immediately available, the keys in that corporation's database and the SIN reader's identity and rating (which I would imagine would include a permissions list which improves as the reader's rating improves) are going to indicate how much information to share with the SIN reader.  A SIN reader that transmits an identity of 'SK-Prime' is going to get every iota of information for the aforementioned SIN; a reader that transmits 'Renraku Security' might get 'yeah, that SIN exists, but we ain't gonna tell you even what gender or metatype the entity in question is' - or it may deny that it exists, if that SIN is (for example) for a deep-black corporate Johnson.

The bureaucracy that you want interfering certainly does interfere - but because every gear in that bureaucracy has its own agenda, it may turn fast or slow, depending on who you are, why you're asking, and how those two fit into that agenda.

[Critias]

One thing I'd like to remind people of is that these qualities aren't necessary to play a character of a certain background.  Taking the quality means you acknowledge the downsides, as written, and that you want them to hassle you enough to earn you the number of karma being offered.  If you just want to play a dude who used to work for a corp, knock yourself out, and say so, pick appropriate skills, maybe have a contact or two, whatever;  you didn't take the negative quality, so you got away "clean" and don't have to jump through all these hoops (and likewise if you want to be a UCAS kid, have a prison record, or what-have-you).

The qualities are there for people that WANT the quality, not for people that just want the background.  If you don't like 'em (and I don't blame you), don't take 'em.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

A very good point indeed.

[DigitalZombie]

Yeah good point
I think some people (myself included) just have problems with playing a 25 flaw, when Im not really that much into the reasoning behind the high point value.
I have trouble seeing how this flaw is more than 3 times worth than "unsteady hands" giving only a mere 7 points.

I would have preferred a less point value, giving the player the option of buying negative qualities like Bad rep or prejudiced against SINless to show the drawbacks many in this thread are talking about.
With a whooping 25 points, a player is less inclined to pick up more negative qualities if he doesnt gain any points for it. Thats why I like medicine mans original post about lessening the values (and therefore being able to add qualities like prejudiced, enemy, bad rep, etc to reflect the how and why)

@Wyrm ouroboros
I suppose youd allow me playing a horizon corporate citizen troll, without taking the 25 negative quality, but instead just taking prejudiced SINless (common, closet) for 5 points and taking a -2 penalty to all social tests against SINless (this isnt representing the troll hating them, but the other way around) ?

[Medicineman]

We decided that the Corp SINner is worth only 15 Points and we'll change that accordingly at Home.And next Time I'm at a convention, playing one of those two Chars, I'll tell the GM that its worth only 15 Points and that I'll get  some other neg Quals for 10 more Points (lets see how they react to that)

Hough!
Medicineman

[DigitalZombie]

Yeah I think that would be the best solution:)
I think we can all agree on that it doesnt matter what point value a quality has, has long as the drawback/benefit scales reasonable well with the karma gained/lost.
If Wyrm ouroboros awards a player 25 points, the player should expect 25 points of negative drawbacks.
If Medicineman as a GM only awards a player 15 points for the same quality, said player should expect 15 points of negative drawbacks.

[Medicineman]

If Medicineman as a GM only awards....

I'm not the GM in my Groups. just a Player

Hough!
Medicineman

[firebug]

A corporate-born SINner still has to pay 'taxes', framed as a percentage of their income.

From which Income ?
 I doubt that a shadowrunner deducts his Shadowrunning fees to the IRS ?
Highly unbeleiviable !

There are literally a dozen threads on the topic of taxes for the various SINner qualities.  The consensus, confirmed by freelancers as well, is that they aren't "taxes" like those you'd pay to your government.  They're bribes to the right people, keeping the paperwork flowing, and the cost of keeping the corp off your back (somewhat).

I never did understand why the SIN quality is even around. I would have thought that if you had a Corp Born SIN, you would have either been willingly sent into the Shadows (which makes sense), or you were pushed out because of something you did. In which case, why in the world would you still pay taxes (let alone report income) to your Corporation, and why haven't they slapped a Criminal SIN on you, because you are basically a rogue person with Corp secrets in your head.

That's more a "justification as to why we enforce it as such in Missions".  The actual quality says absolutely nothing about that; it just says "taxes" and makes no attempt to imply it's for anything else.  So in my games, I ignore it because it's a laughable concept for the runner to be paying taxes to their corp still.  There is no way to read that quality and take from it that the money is to pay people off and used for bribes.  It only works if you start with "okay, this is the effect, let's come up with a reason for it".  They all just say "percent of gross income in taxes".  Even if you still think that means your runner does pay the percentage, guess what?  Your runner's identity isn't getting paid.  John Doe, his fake SIN, is the guy getting the money from these runs and jobs.  And John Doe is not a corporate SINner.  And that's if John Doe is using a bank account.  Do you use cred sticks?  Congrats!  The whole point of those is to remove a money trail.

All the arguments I've heard for it are from the perspective of "justify it so it makes sense in Missions", not "give a reason as to how the quality says it applies to characters".  It's two opposite ends, you know?  One starts at the effect and works backwards, the other one starts at the quality and looks for effects.  They meet in the middle and clash.  Perfect example of Namikaze's signature quote.  No attempt to understand, just to form a rebuttal.

[Kincaid]

I don't think game mechanics could ever fully cover the effectively infinite backstories players come up with, nor should they.  Big ticket negative qualities like corporate sinner or amnesia allow the gamemaster and player fantastic levels of flexibility to work out exactly what it means for that particular character to have that drawback.  If your character is a sinner with a bodyguard license, maybe he just declares his income as an independent contractor and pays actual taxes.  Or maybe it's a series of bribes to various people back in HR to keep the corp off his back.  Or maybe the corp is blackmailing him and they drain his accounts every so often to remind him of his ties to his "true" boss.  Or whatever.  As long as the mechanical aspects of things are observed, in terms of whatever percentage is required, then the fluff aspect of things is really up to the table.  I would hate to have the game so rigidly defined that character fluff was completely dictated by RAW.

Just about every problem raised in this thread can be solved by adding imagination.

[TheDai]

What a heated discussion here.

From my prospective I believe the problem lies in "assumed GM knowledge".

The negative quality says what it is, but gives very little information about how to play it out as GameMaster.

If no one at the Table is an expert about the SR world  and how exactly every NPC will react to certain things, it seems impossible to "do things right".

When someone picks CorpSIN for 25 Karma, the GM should "punish" it regularly, but the book doesn't tell the GM how to do it.
Different in form but similar in style: If someone only ever read the SR5 core rulebook, he could assume Redmond is a happy place, with fields of roses and daisies everywhere. There isn't much negating this in the core book. Or in any SR5 Material so far, except the missions talking about it.

So I guess 25 Karma is perfectly fine, if the GM knows how to use it 'properly'. This however, isn't an easy task and can create a lot of confusion on a table.

[Sendaz]

  So in my games, I ignore it because it's a laughable concept for the runner to be paying taxes to their corp still. 

Hmmm.....   AuditRun™

You play a crack combat accountant on a team whose mission is to track down those pesky non-filing shadowrunners and collect back taxes.

In the future, the only certainty in life is still just Death & Taxes.

Sometimes you have to bring both.

[Namikaze]

  So in my games, I ignore it because it's a laughable concept for the runner to be paying taxes to their corp still. 

Hmmm.....   AuditRun™

You play a crack combat accountant on a team whose mission is to track down those pesky non-filing shadowrunners and collect back taxes.

In the future, the only certainty in life is still just Death & Taxes.

Sometimes you have to bring both.

ROFL