[WorkOver]

I hate house rules, but I use like 3.  One of the major ones is cyberlimb attributes.  Seems that these new writers have married the idea of cyberlimbs having separate attributes from the character.

This is dumb.  A Str 5 character is STR 5, all the way around. The attributes are abstract, just like everything else in this game.  To have to buy +2 strength so your robot arm can catch your body of 5 is dumb.

Forget that. So, you can add 1-3 points of strength to your cyber limbs right?

What does a STR 10 troll do? His base Str for his cyber arm is 3. He can add 3 more, making his cyber arm a str of 6. 4 points less than his meat body......  Please tell me I am missing a glaringly obvious something.....

[ZeConster]

You're missing 2 glaringly obvious things: first, even in SR4A, cyberlimbs were 3/3/3 by default (they're not part of your body, they're a mechanical extension that you get to control); and second, before enhancements, you can customize cyberlimbs, with every extra STR or AGI point costing 5k and raising the Availability by 1, and with both stats capped by your racial maximum (go beyond that, and you can't use the cyberlimb). Add the enhancements, and your STR 10 Troll can have an STR 13 cyber arm - in fact, any Troll can.

[Redwulfe]

It seems to me the rules for cyberlimbs make since. I have known many people that have a weaker arm, can't curl as much weight, not as dexterous, and so on. why would getting a replacement arm be any different. Just because a world renowned body builder get a cyber replacement doesn't mean that the servos of that replacement can curl 75lbs. No matter what his former arm or his other could do. Nor should he be able to move it as quickly or with as much accuracy if the responsiveness of the arm is different. Being able to catch a dropped item with his real arm versus his cyber one will be no different than the same thing with his non dominate hand. That's why they have an off hand penalty. Your Cyber limb will come stock for the average run of the mill Joe. The body builder will need to get better servos for the arm if he wants to still be able to be as effective as he was before. The same would apply to master marksman wanting to get rid of the shack and fine tune the motor controls to be as accurate as his previous limb.

Just my thoughts,
Red

[Mäx]

This is dumb.  A Str 5 character is STR 5, all the way around. The attributes are abstract, just like everything else in this game.  To have to buy +2 strength so your robot arm can catch your body of 5 is dumb.

No its not dumb in any way, if you have above average strength then it makes sense you have to pay extra to get an above average arm to match.

[All4BigGuns]

This is dumb.  A Str 5 character is STR 5, all the way around. The attributes are abstract, just like everything else in this game.  To have to buy +2 strength so your robot arm can catch your body of 5 is dumb.

No its not dumb in any way, if you have above average strength then it makes sense you have to pay extra to get an above average arm to match.

It is, however, what led to the people in the previous edition who would dump Agi and max it out on a single Cyber-Arm.

What I think would be a better way to handle the cost of the cyber-limb would be just to have a cost increase if one's natural attribute is above or below average for one's meta-type (how much of an increase depending on the gap).

[Xenon]

To customize the cyberlimb to match your physical body STR and AGI is not an enhancement. After you customized your cyberlimb to match your physical STR and AGI you can add enhancements (such as STR, AGI and/or Armor - they all cost capacity and are a lot more expansive per point than customization).

See p.455-457

[firebug]

It is, however, what led to the people in the previous edition who would dump Agi and max it out on a single Cyber-Arm.

What I think would be a better way to handle the cost of the cyber-limb would be just to have a cost increase if one's natural attribute is above or below average for one's meta-type (how much of an increase depending on the gap).

That's kind of how it works now, if you assume that the increased cost from raising the STR and BOD of an Ork's cyber-arm could be considered just the increased cost of making a more specialized cyber-arm.  But at the same time, if they can just make a cyber-limb stronger to match the person it is connected to, then they'd be able to just...  Make it stronger.

The main problem though is that it's pretty steeped into the setting that yeah, a cyber-limb can have better attributes than a meat arm.  Also, those people who dumped AGI and maxxed it out on a single cyber arm?  That may make them good with one-handed weapons, but other things like stealth they would still absolutely suck at.  And if they tried it in SR5, they'd also be stuck walking and running incredibly slowly.  It's not a "get away with crap attributes" free card, but it is a legitimate way to get around some of the drawbacks of bad attributes, at a fairly high price.

[Mäx]

But the think is they changed the augmented max to always be static +4 to current natural attribute, but really the place where this would have had an actual positive effect is cyberlimbs and those get to ignore it, its just dump as heck.

[All4BigGuns]

To customize the cyberlimb to match your physical body STR and AGI is not an enhancement. After you customized your cyberlimb to match your physical STR and AGI you can add enhancements (such as STR, AGI and/or Armor - they all cost capacity and are a lot more expansive per point than customization).

See p.455-457

That's the thing, cyber-limbs should have been made to where the limb was always equal to the body's natural attribute (before adding the enhancement) with the cost increase for limb attributes above (or below) average being automatic. This way would still let those who want one arm better than the rest of their body while at the same time preventing the "Cyber Arm of Awesome" crap from popping up.

[Xenon]

You can use customization to match "your current frame and musculature."
= if you have strength and/or agility higher than 3 you can increase the cyberlimb to match this.

If you boosted your strength and/or agility beyond the natural maximum (with for example other cyberware, exceptional attribute quality or adept powers) you can still only customize your cyberlimb up to your racial natural maximum. Or as the rule book state: "If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements."

Once you customized the cyberlimb up to your strength and/or agility you can still enhance the cyberlimb slightly more. This is called enhancing. You can only enhance a cyberlimb a maximum of up to +3 strength and/or agility and/or armor. All enhancements cost capacity. You can only get armor 2 at individual cyberlimbs at chargen (as armor 3 for a cyberlimb is availability 15).

Example 1;
So if you have a Troll with STR 10 and AGI 4 your cyberlimb will have STR 3 and AGI 3, but you can customize the cyberlimb up to STR 10 and AGI 4. It will, however, increase the availability of the cyberlimb by +8 (in this case you will be fine as base cyberlimbs have availability of 4 and 4+8 is not more than 12 so you can get it at chargen). It will also cost you 8x5,000=40,000¥
- After your cyberlimb have STR 10 and AGI 4 you can enhance it with up to +3 STR, +3 AGI and/or +2 (at chargen) armor. A STR 13, AGI 7, Armor 2 syntetic cyberarm would cost you 1 essence, 20,000¥ (limb) + 40,000¥ (custom) + 19,500¥ (str) +19,500¥ (agi) +6,000¥ (armor) = 105,000¥ and 8 capacity (which is all capacity a syntetic cyberarm have to offer).

Example 2;
If you have a human that dump stat STR and AGI that buy a cyberarm will have STR 3 and AGI 3. You cannot customize it higher. You can still enhance it with up to +3 STR, +3 AGI and +2 (at chargen) armor.
- A STR6, AGI6 and armor +2 syntetic cyberarm would cost 1 essence, 20,000¥ (limb) + 19,500¥ (str) +19,500¥ (agi) + 6,000¥ (armor) = 65,000¥ and 8 capacity (which is all capacity a syntetic cyberarm have to offer).

[All4BigGuns]

You miss the whole point. It should basically have a limit of whatever the character's natural attribute is (and yes, they should have to 'customize it down' if they made that attribute a 'dump stat').

[Xenon]

The rule text state: "You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature."

It does not state: "You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to exceed your  frame and musculature."



I think this is what some people might have missed. I think some people think you can customize a cyberlimb to race natural maximum - and THEN use enhancements to further increase STR and AGI of the limb....

You can only customize the cyberlimb up to your current (at the time of purchase of the cyberlimb) STR and/or AGI (as long as your current STR and/or AGI is not higher then your race natural maximum). For race with extraordernary strength values (Trolls) you also need to make sure you don't get higher than a total availability of the customized limb higher than 12 (if you buy the cyberlimb during chargen).

[All4BigGuns]

They think that because it doesn't say that they can't (and it really doesn't). It is a loop hole that needs sealing--I was hoping that the new edition would do so. I still think that those who dump one of those attributes should have to customize the attribute down before enhancements (their own fault for dumping that attribute).

All it would take is changing the line "If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb..." to "If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural rating for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb..."

(Emphases mine)

[Xenon]

...it doesn't say that they can't (and it really doesn't).

It is pretty straight English if you ask me:
"You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature."

There is no way that line can be read as
"You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to exceed your frame and musculature."
or
"You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized up to your racial maximum frame and musculature."


Up "to your frame and musculature" is RAW.
If your GM let you customize the limb up "to your racial maximum", then that is a house rule.

[All4BigGuns]

Check the edit to the post...