[Xenon]

That have nothing to do with how much you can customize your limb. The line you quoted only further LIMIT how much you can customize your limb (in this case to cover the edge exception where some people might have a frame and musculature that exceed natural rating for that attribute).

But sure. Guess I can see how some people might misinterpret it (at least if they really want it to say that you can customize all the way up to race maximum). But if you really read the text it is actually pretty clear what both rules state.

Limit A) "You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature"
Limit B) You can not customize your cyberlimb "beyond your natural maximum for that attribute"

= Only up to your frame and musculature but not beyond your natural maximum for that attribute.

[All4BigGuns]

That have nothing to do with how much you can customize your limb. The line you quoted only further LIMIT how much you can customize your limb (in this case to cover the edge exception where some people might have a frame and musculature that exceed natural rating for that attribute).

But sure. Guess I can see how some people might misinterpret it (at least if they really want it to say that you can customize all the way up to race maximum). But if you really read the text it is actually pretty clear what both rules state.

I've tried pointing out that very point multiple times in threads dealing with the previous edition. The only thing that would work would be making that one-word change to that sentence.

[ZeConster]

But sure. Guess I can see how some people might misinterpret it

Just you, actually, since you're interpreting the fluff description as a further limit on the crunch description, instead of viewing the crunch description as the rules explanation of what they mean with the fluff description.

[Xenon]

Read the description again. Please.

It all boils down to:
Limit A) "You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature"
Limit B) You can not customize your cyberlimb "beyond your natural maximum for that attribute"


No where does it say you may exceed your frame and musculature.
No where does it say you may increase up to your natural maximum for that attribute.

It does say you can customize TO your frame and musculature (not your race natural maximum)
it does say you can not customize BEYOND your natural maximum for that attribute (another limit)



Not being able to customize BEYOND your natural maximum for that attribute does not mean you automatically can customize TO your natural maximum for that attribute.


I can understand that it might be possible to miss-read it at a first glance (as are a lot in this book it seems, already made that mistake several times myself), but if you really read the text. Line by line. Then it is crystal clear. The text is simply not ambiguous.

The first sentence describe the intent, the design and purpose of using Customization on your cyberlimb. To match your cyberlimb to your body attributes if your body attributes have higher value than 3 in either STR and/or AGI. To customize the standard cyberlimb to match your unique frame and musculature. Not to customize the standard cyberlimb to match your race natural maximum frame and musculature. If the intent, design and purpose was to let you raise STR and AGI to your racial natural maximum then they would have worded it different. Why would t hey even mention YOUR frame and musculature if it had nothing to do with the customization of the basic cyberlimb in the fist place??

If you think the first sentence is just "fluff" and that "beyond your natural maximum for that attribute" also mean you can customize your basic cyberlimb TO your race natural maximum then who am I to stop you? RAW state you can customize to your frame and musculature, not to your race natural maximum

- but you are free to house rule it so you can enhance cyberlimbs beyond your frame and musculature all the way up to racial natural maximum and THEN add another layer of enhancements on-top of that (but that would make cyberlimbs kinda overpowered don't you agree? and it would also not match the text as it is written in the book. and it would also not make sense. and this was the intent it would also been worded differently).

[ZeConster]

I strongly disagree with your opinion about A. You are interpreting a fluff line, one that was copied almost verbatim from SR4A, as if it were crunch, and even trying to push it through by putting your interpretation in the Rules Clarification topic as if it were fact, while ignoring the fact that the book has counterexamples: the Street Samurai has cyberarms with Strength 11, which your interpretation would forbid, and the Weapons Specialist's cyberarm states that it was customized to Agility 5 and Strength 5. Now, there are a number of small mistakes in the archetypes, as well as some big ones, but those big ones seem to have been caused by rule changes after they got made (ware got more expensive, so the Street Samurai is more than 200k over budget; they decided to not make Critical Strike and Enhanced Accuracy stack, so the Brawling Adept's and Gunslinger Adept's Adept Powers are off). The whole "tailored and customized to [your/the intended user’s] frame and musculature" part, however, which you base your entire argument on, was copied verbatim from SR4A, which means the line was there before the SR5 archetypes were made, which would mean that the people who wrote them also misinterpreted the rules. And EVEN if that's the case, since certain parts of the book contradict your opinion, you don't get to push it upon others as fact without at least asking the people who wrote it for clarification!

[Xenon]

Yes, very strange that the street samurai have 11 strength arm. According to cyberlimbs, customization and the enhancement table he can only have a strength 8 arm. The cyberarm on the weapon specialist is also a bit strange (although you can read it as her arm have "custom agility 5" (which is customized to match her agility of 5). And that she also have "strength 5" (but not "custom" strength 5. That strength is actually enhanced by 2 points). Not very likely, but....).

Either the written rules that describe cyberlimbs, customization and/or the enhancement table are wrong (and i am wrong).
- Or there is [another] error in the street samurai archetype (and you are wrong).

Maybe the first sentence should not be there.
Maybe the first sentence should read something else.
Maybe the first sentence is inaccurate "fluff".

If you chose to totally ignore the first sentence altogether (because it is "fluff"(?) or whatever) then the only thing that limit is that you can never increase beyond your race natural maximum - which in turn could imply that you can raise to your race natural maximum.


But as the first sentence currently is written it does state that you can customize a base cyberlimb to your frame and musculature. That sentence simply can not be interpreted as you can customize a base cyberlimb beyond your frame and musculature or that you can customize a base cyberlimb to your racial natural maximum frame and musculature. But from a lot of the replies in this thread this is obviously easy to miss. Even if you read it twice.

I don't mind if they change the first sentence to something else. Or state that it is "fluff" (whatever that means). Or that you actually can customize cyberlimbs all the way up to racial maximum without paying with capacity or more than 5,000 nuyen per point before you further enhance them with cyberlimb enhancements (but why even consider enhancing a cyberlimb if you have the option to customize it for less cost and at zero capacity...?)

But until they do... this rule IS very clear and it is NOT ambiguous (like some other rules in this edition).


It is still a very good idea to ask why the street samurai can have a 11 strength cyberlimb (i had not seen that until you pointed it out, thank you).
- Will add it as a question to the FAQ thread.

[ZeConster]

Yes, very strange that the street samurai have 11 strength arm. According to cyberlimbs, customization and the enhancement table he can only have a strength 8 arm. The cyberarm on the weapon specialist is also a bit strange (although you can read it as her arm have "custom agility 5" (which is customized to match her agility of 5). And that she also have "strength 5" (but not "custom" strength 5. That strength is actually enhanced by 2 points). Not very likely, but....).

Either the written rules that describe cyberlimbs, customization and/or the enhancement table are wrong (and i am wrong).
- Or there is [another] error in the street samurai archetype (and you are wrong).

You leave out the third option, which is that the rules are right in both places and you're simply reading them wrong. By RAW, the Street Samurai is allowed to have a cyberlimb of which the Strength and Agility have been customized up to 8 and 6 (his natural maximums), and then Enhanced by another 3. The "tailored and customized to your frame and musculature" line is "fluff", or "flavor text", which is followed by the part that actually describes what this means rules-wise, just like all Qualities first give a "fluff" description of what the Quality is, and then a section that explains what this means rules-wise.

But as the first sentence currently is written it does state that you can customize a base cyberlimb to your frame and musculature. That sentence simply can not be interpreted as you can customize a base cyberlimb beyond your frame and musculature or that you can customize a base cyberlimb to your racial natural maximum frame and musculature. But from a lot of the replies in this thread this is obviously easy to miss. Even if you read it twice.

Except that sentence was pretty much there in SR4A as well, and as A4BG said, people would "dump Agi and max it out on a single Cyber-Arm" then, so I don't see why suddenly in 5th edition the sentence means something different.

I don't mind if they change the first sentence to something else. Or state that it is "fluff" (whatever that means). Or that you actually can customize cyberlimbs all the way up to racial maximum without paying with capacity or more than 5,000 nuyen per point before you further enhance them with cyberlimb enhancements (but why even consider enhancing a cyberlimb if you have the option to customize it for less cost and at zero capacity...?)

Because you can raise them by another 3 by enhancing them - like the Street Samurai: his racial maximum Strength and Agility are 8 and 6, but by enhancing his cyberlimbs after customizing them, he's able to go 3 beyond that. Keep in mind, though, that while this is indeed very powerful, it costs 94k and 1 Essence to have an 11/8 Str/Agi cyberlimb even without any extras.

Anyway, your unaugmented attributes cannot go beyond your natural maximum (that is what "natural maximum" means), so if your interpretation of that first sentence were correct, the second sentence would be redundant. The fact that it's there is a big clue.

[All4BigGuns]

Except that sentence was pretty much there in SR4A as well, and as A4BG said, people would "dump Agi and max it out on a single Cyber-Arm" then, so I don't see why suddenly in 5th edition the sentence means something different.

It doesn't really, and that is the problem I have. I was hoping that gaping loop-hole would have been sealed up, <rest of the sentence censored by poster>.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Isn't that sentence talking about the appearance of the arm?  It doesn't say anything about attributes.  It says you can get an arm that fits your body's size and general ripped-ness so it won't look out of place beyond being shiny.

[All4BigGuns]

Isn't that sentence talking about the appearance of the arm?  It doesn't say anything about attributes.  It says you can get an arm that fits your body's size and general ripped-ness so it won't look out of place beyond being shiny.

If it were only talking about appearance, then it wouldn't affect attributes at all (and would probably cost much less).

[Xenon]

We are both basically just repeating the same arguments over and over now. I think we should just agree to disagree and wait for someone to answer the FAQ (i put it up there as neutral as possible).

I do understand what you are saying and, as I said, the first sentence might be "fluff" (and if you ignore the first sentence edit: or just read it as "you can have customized cyberlimbs! yay!" then the rest does indicate that you are allowed to increase stats on the cyberlimb all the way to natural maximum).

But at the same time the English text as written might also be intended as a limit on cyberlimbs (and actually a limit that imho would make sense, but that is besides the point)


(Also; just because  it was "allowed" in SR4 does not mean it is allowed (or intended) in SR5).




...while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. sigh

I think the first sentence talk about getting an arm with a comparable agility and strength to your lost limb and if you want an arm that is stronger or faster than your lost limb you would turn to the enhancement department. A very fit person would have lost a very fit limb and to customize a new limb to match his old would be pretty expansive... and after he got his customized limb that mirror his lost limb he could still enhance it with even more strength and agility.

I don't see how the first sentence talk about growing a limb that look like it came directly from the Hulk and then attach it to a wage slave. That is not my view of a custom job to fit your frame and musculature. That is more similar to what an extreme strength enhancement would be...

[ZeConster]

Xenon: I'm not ignoring the first sentence, I just disagree with you about its implications (I think it just means "you can have customized cyberlimbs! yay!"). It's not just that we disagree: it's that you seem to be completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.
Perhaps customization can be seen as making sure the nerve connections are optimal, giving you better motor control over the cyberlimb and unlocking your full potential (and therefore doesn't take up any capacity, although it does make the limb more expensive and more difficult to obtain), while enhancement can be seen as upgrading the cyberlimb itself to go beyond that.

A4BG: while I agree that cyberlimbs are a bit gamy, it seems that they made customization and enhancements significantly more expensive (5k instead of 1.5k, and 6.5k instead of 250), and decreased the max rating of enhancements (no more Strength 15 cyberarms for Trolls), so things have improved a little, it seems.

[WorkOver]

Okay, I was wrong. Very good. They needed to reword this section.

Actually, they need to leave complicated cyber rules to cyberpunk 2020. They are failing hard.

Okay, combat is abstract. These rules make no sense now, they made no sense in 4th.

The way it was in 4th worked best. +1s in melee combat per pair of cyber limbs.

It makes no sense to use the agility or strength of a single cyber arm for the damage since the damage of a punch is determined by the opposite hip, the feet placement, the placement of the fist, center of gravity, and a bunch of other stuff.

If your arm was agility 4 but your body was agility 2, you would still suck at punching.

Very disappointed. These will be house ruled.

[Critias]

It seems like you're trying to have it both ways, WorkOver.  I'm doing my best to ignore the way you keep repeatedly calling everything and everyone stupid, etc, etc, and just listen to your complaint itself -- and even so, you're contradicting yourself.  Calm down, take a deep breath, and read the rules, for starters.  You've shown (on multiple forums) that you're not taking the time to read about how things actually work, and you're skipping straight to the complaining and insulting everyone part.  Ease up.

Now, the other thing you've got to do is, after having read the rules, to not overthink them.  Don't insist the system is meant to be abstract, and then think up a bunch of reasons for that abstract system to fall apart when a dude's throwing a punch.  Is it abstract, or is it so realistic that you're bringing in plenty of real-world fighting science for realism's sake?  In Shadowrun if you've got an Agility 4 arm (though why you'd stop at Agility 4 is beyond me), and you describe your attack as punching someone (or stabbing 'em with spurs in that arm, or zapping 'em with the shock hand, or shooting them with a pistol in that hand), guess what?  You get to use your Agility 4 (though, again, most guys pulling this trick would go much higher, nuyen allowing).  That should be awesome.  It should mean you've got this bumbling clutz with a really badass combat-augmented arm all full of servos and gyros and stability hardware, capable of acts twice as precise as the stumbling, fumbling, meatbody it's bolted to, and suddenly your Decker is dangerous with a gun in his hand.  Awesome!

And yet -- for some reason -- you're acting like that's (a) not how the rule should work, while simultaneously insisting that (b) cyberlimbs are underpowered.

Just embrace the notion that "if you're doing stuff with Limb X, you get to use the enhanced attributes of Limb X," roll some dice, and be happy.  It is an abstracted, simplified, way to look at things, but Shadowrun is at it's best when it's being abstract and simple, IMO.  Don't overthink it, house rule it, and then call it underpowered based on your personal interpretation;  just accept it for what it is, and have a good time.

[All4BigGuns]

I still think that where it says:

"If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb..."

Should have read:

"If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural rating for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb..."