[Ravennus]

Question:  Would Cyberlimb attributes effect Physical Limits if you were exclusively using that limb, or no?

[Xenon]

...Should have read:

"If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural rating for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb..."

That would make sense.

post edited from Natural Maximum Attribute to Metatype Maximum Attribute Rating - as it seem as if I got the two mixed up in this post

But it would also open up another edge case where you can get a higher than natural maximum attribute Metatype Maximum Attribute Rating and then customize your cyberlimb up to that rating (and then adding enhancements on top of that).

If that was the intention I would rather they left the rule in place as-is changed the the rule to "If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your Metatype Maximum Attribute Rating for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb..." to prevent custom cyberlimbs with more than natural maximum stats Metatype Maximum Attribute Ratings and instead made the first sentence harder to take for a "fluff" sentence.
"You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature"
to
"You can have attributes of your cyberlimb tailored and customized up to, but never beyond, your natural rating for the attribute values".

Question:  Would Cyberlimb attributes effect Physical Limits if you were exclusively using that limb, or no?

There is no mentioning in the rules either way.
But seeing as SR5 simplify things quite a lot over previous editions I don't think you will be required to keep track of different physical limits depending on if you use no cyberlimb, one cyberlimb and mulitple cyberlimbs. So I think it is pretty safe to say cyberlimbs does not affect your physical limits at all (but I have no reference to back up that statement).

[WorkOver]

It seems like you're trying to have it both ways, WorkOver.  I'm doing my best to ignore the way you keep repeatedly calling everything and everyone stupid, etc, etc, and just listen to your complaint itself -- and even so, you're contradicting yourself.  Calm down, take a deep breath, and read the rules, for starters.  You've shown (on multiple forums) that you're not taking the time to read about how things actually work, and you're skipping straight to the complaining and insulting everyone part.  Ease up.

Now, the other thing you've got to do is, after having read the rules, to not overthink them.  Don't insist the system is meant to be abstract, and then think up a bunch of reasons for that abstract system to fall apart when a dude's throwing a punch.  Is it abstract, or is it so realistic that you're bringing in plenty of real-world fighting science for realism's sake?  In Shadowrun if you've got an Agility 4 arm (though why you'd stop at Agility 4 is beyond me), and you describe your attack as punching someone (or stabbing 'em with spurs in that arm, or zapping 'em with the shock hand, or shooting them with a pistol in that hand), guess what?  You get to use your Agility 4 (though, again, most guys pulling this trick would go much higher, nuyen allowing).  That should be awesome.  It should mean you've got this bumbling clutz with a really badass combat-augmented arm all full of servos and gyros and stability hardware, capable of acts twice as precise as the stumbling, fumbling, meatbody it's bolted to, and suddenly your Decker is dangerous with a gun in his hand.  Awesome!

And yet -- for some reason -- you're acting like that's (a) not how the rule should work, while simultaneously insisting that (b) cyberlimbs are underpowered.

Just embrace the notion that "if you're doing stuff with Limb X, you get to use the enhanced attributes of Limb X," roll some dice, and be happy.  It is an abstracted, simplified, way to look at things, but Shadowrun is at it's best when it's being abstract and simple, IMO.  Don't overthink it, house rule it, and then call it underpowered based on your personal interpretation;  just accept it for what it is, and have a good time.

Who are you with this rudeness. I NEVER called anyone stupid.

I have every right to call a rule stupid. What are you talking about I want to have what both ways?

The mechanics of a punch matter when the rules are based on the actions of a specific limb. A specific limb does not throw a punch, hence why it matters.

The aimed shot rules are abstract. The fact that the armor on a single arm helps protect your head is abstract. The facts that an armored vest protects your whole body from being splashed by a toxic wave is abstract.

These cyber limb rules are stupid because they are specific and not abstract, yet don't take biology into consideration.

I paid for these rules, I have a right  to say of I think these rules are stupid or not.

You have no right  to speak to me like you did.  Don't like what I typed, stay out of my thread.

[ZeConster]

Okay, I was wrong. Very good. They needed to reword this section.

Actually, they need to leave complicated cyber rules to cyberpunk 2020. They are failing hard.

Okay, combat is abstract. These rules make no sense now, they made no sense in 4th.

The way it was in 4th worked best. +1s in melee combat per pair of cyber limbs.

It makes no sense to use the agility or strength of a single cyber arm for the damage since the damage of a punch is determined by the opposite hip, the feet placement, the placement of the fist, center of gravity, and a bunch of other stuff.

If your arm was agility 4 but your body was agility 2, you would still suck at punching.

Very disappointed. These will be house ruled.

Whoa whoa WHOA! You played SR4? Then why are you yelling at SR5 over cyberlimbs?! Aside from making customization and enhancement more expensive, and capping customization at +3 instead of 7 (although you still couldn't go beyond [natural max]x1.5 in 4th), and getting rid of the Body rating for cyberlimbs, these rules are the same as in Augmentation (and therefore SR4A)!
Also, I'm pretty sure every single movie ever where someone gets a robotic arm disagrees with you on the "If your arm was agility 4 but your body was agility 2, you would still suck at punching" bit.

But it would also open up another edge case where you can get a higher than natural maximum attribute and then customize your cyberlimb up to that rating (and then adding enhancements on top of that).

That is literally impossible, because your natural maximum is the highest value your natural rating can go.

[WorkOver]

LOL!  I thought the rules where stupid in 4th also. House ruled it, but they where a little easier to find the rules, also they where more clear.

[Glaive]

My issue with these rules isn't with combat as much as it is with other things. I can easily imagine just using my limb's stats for punching, shanking, and shooting, but what about climbing? Do I average across my two arms? Arms and legs? What about torso? Same thing with running. Just my legs? Do arm and torso movements count as well? I'm pretty sure I can apply this to most physically active skills. Personally, I'd rather not make a judgement call every time a cybered character does something physical. I'd like something more concrete to work with, even if I end up deviating from it.

I do have to agree though that it seems weird that you can augment up to your racial maximum rather than your current score. It just puts these images in my head of some scrawny little punk with Jax arms. I don't think it would really hinder the game all that much if you couldn't customize past your current score. This would let a 3 str/agi decker have an arm at 6 str/agi after enhancements, which is pretty damn nice. It may not let him shoot a pistol like a high-end street sam, but he can match the best non-aug and can shank like a hand cannon. At the same time though, this decker would have to pay out the ass if he wanted a 9 str/agi arm, much less two, so I guess it balances out.

[digression] Also, what about cyberskulls? As I understand it, they also have attributes. In what possible case would I ever customize my cyberskull? I guess this is a pretty easy case since I can't even imagine a normal situation in which I'd need to know my head's strength score, so I'd just let it sit at 3. It just seems kinda weird to me that it's even possible for a human to have a str/agi 9 skull. What would that even look like?

Finally, is there any reason for me to get two cyber spurs? I kinda wanna make cyber-wolverine, but according to page 196 in relation to multiple attacks, "This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons (firearms or melee)." It seems to me like there is never a good reason to dual wield melee weapons except to avoid getting disarmed, which isn't really an issue for cyberspurs. I guess I could just do it for style points, but 5000 is a lot to ask for something useless.[/digression]

[Mäx]

Finally, is there any reason for me to get two cyber spurs? I kinda wanna make cyber-wolverine, but according to page 196 in relation to multiple attacks, "This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons (firearms or melee)." It seems to me like there is never a good reason to dual wield melee weapons except to avoid getting disarmed, which isn't really an issue for cyberspurs. I guess I could just do it for style points, but 5000 is a lot to ask for something useless.[/digression]

not really right now, but once "Run And Gun" gives as the martial arts rules back, there most likely are bonuses you can get from using 2 melee weapons.

[All4BigGuns]

Finally, is there any reason for me to get two cyber spurs? I kinda wanna make cyber-wolverine, but according to page 196 in relation to multiple attacks, "This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons (firearms or melee)." It seems to me like there is never a good reason to dual wield melee weapons except to avoid getting disarmed, which isn't really an issue for cyberspurs. I guess I could just do it for style points, but 5000 is a lot to ask for something useless.[/digression]

not really right now, but once "Run And Gun" gives as the martial arts rules back, there most likely are bonuses you can get from using 2 melee weapons.

Unfortunately, I fear for the Martial Arts rules. I suspect that they'll get the same treatment Critical Strike did.

[Mäx]

Unfortunately, I fear for the Martial Arts rules. I suspect that they'll get the same treatment Critical Strike did.

I hope not, but you might be right as they "Allow Trolls to do too much damage".
Yeh writers maybe you should have thought about that before changing the damage calculations to use straight strength

[ZeConster]

LOL!  I thought the rules where stupid in 4th also. House ruled it, but they where a little easier to find the rules, also they where more clear.

Customized cyberlimbs: These limbs are tailored and customized to the intended user’s frame and musculature. Such customized cyberlimbs also come with physical Attributes of 3, but are more versatile and expensive than standard models. Customized cyberlimbs function like standard limbs in most regards, but come with Body, Strength, and Agility attributes that may exceed the standard cyberlimb attribute rating of 3. They allow the user to raise their starting Body, Strength, and Agility attributes up to the character’s natural attribute maximum (p. 68). However, each attribute point raised above 3 increases the limb’s Availability by 1 point and adds 1,500¥ to the cost — though it does not take up any Capacity. Increases above the natural attribute maximum and up to the augmented maximum must be handled as cyberlimb enhancements, with the standard Capacity and nuyen costs (Cyberlimb Enhancements, p. 344). In all other stats customized cyberlimbs are identical to standard cyberlimbs (ie. Capacity limits, etc).

Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize it after purchase, but you can add enhancements.

You were saying?

Semi-related: I find it interesting how you started with "SR5 is stupid, it doesn't even allow you to have cyberlimbs that aren't weaker than you if you have attributes that are more than 6", then when people pointed out the totally obvious rules section, went "SR5 is stupid, it allows you to have cyberlimbs that are stronger than you, at least SR4 did it properly", and then when I pointed out it worked like that in SR4 already, went "yeah, I houseruled it in SR4 too". So it's like you did a whole song and dance just to avoid having to say "they haven't nerfed cyberlimbs yet, so I am angry".

[ZombieAcePilot]

So.. I have to comment. The entire , "I don't like these rules so they should be changed!" thing stinks like a baby needing a change. The rules and such forum is generally for intelligent discussion of the rules (for things like clarification). If you want to complain to the devs about how much you abhor their game, why don't you go to their site, and use the contact information to send them an email... or you could go ultra old school and mail them a picture of how much you hate their rules.

[Critias]

Who are you with this rudeness. I NEVER called anyone stupid.

I have every right to call a rule stupid. What are you talking about I want to have what both ways?

The mechanics of a punch matter when the rules are based on the actions of a specific limb. A specific limb does not throw a punch, hence why it matters.

The aimed shot rules are abstract. The fact that the armor on a single arm helps protect your head is abstract. The facts that an armored vest protects your whole body from being splashed by a toxic wave is abstract.

These cyber limb rules are stupid because they are specific and not abstract, yet don't take biology into consideration.

I paid for these rules, I have a right  to say of I think these rules are stupid or not.

You have no right  to speak to me like you did.  Don't like what I typed, stay out of my thread.

Man, if you get rudeness from my post, and don't pick up any at all from you repeatedly calling things "these new writers" do dumb and stupid, I'm really not sure what to tell you.  I've explained the thought process as best I can -- "err on the side of awesome, let a single awesome cyberlimb do awesome things!" -- and that's really all there is to it.  Shadowrunners get limbs to augment, not merely replace;  there are more Essence-friendly ways to give yourself a replacement for a lost limb that'll have you same base stats.  You go for chrome because you want to make a statement, you want to hide a weapons factory of unerringly accurate blades or cyberguns in your arm, you want to kick through an engine block, you want to punch through steel plating.  Folks get chrome to make the things they do with that limb better, in very brutal and straightforward ways.  The rules reflect that.

Got an arm with a high Agility?  Congrats, you use that Agility for shooting, stabbing, punching, chopping, choking, blasting, zapping, throwing, slashing, plinking, poking, and prodding stuff.  If you describe it as something you're doing with that arm alone, and if your GM agrees, you're good to go!  Sling lots of dice, do awesome stuff.  Don't worry about real-world stuff like proper footwork, using your hips to throw, or whatever.  It's an abstract system.  If it's a one handed weapon, you're functionally using one arm, and that's that.  You get your extra dice.  Period.

And that's a good thing, in my opinion, because it errs on the side of the chrome being awesome.  You don't feel the same way -- and you're allowed to not feel the same way -- but I think you'd do well to take a breath or two and calm down, read the whole rules for them (instead of overlooking how customization works in your rush to complain, for instance), and then decide if you really think they need to be house ruled.  I'm not sure what I said that seems to have ruffled your feathers so thoroughly, but I think you're refusing to see the forest for the trees, here.

[Xenon]

People really intend to let a strength 1-2 + agility 1-2  human player get 2 feet and 2 hands with agility 6, strength 6 and a total of +12 armor. For 1.00 Essence (with enough room for an attribute enhancement on top of that...)?

... is there any reason for me to get two cyber spurs?

As I understand it you can use a single melee attack to attack multiple targets. With one attack per target. Up to a max of skill / 2 targets. Split pool per target. And it cost you your free action (so you can't use it if you use your free action to for example run [to make a charge attack]).

If you dual wield you can spend a free action to hit the same target twice. Split pool.


(now... if splitting the pool to do more than one attack is worth it or not is another topic i guess).

[Critias]

People really intend to let a strength 1-2 + agility 1-2  human player get 2 feet and 2 hands with agility 6, strength 6 and a total of +12 armor. For 1.00 Essence (with enough room for an attribute enhancement on top of that...)?

There's a world of difference between the things you do with a hand or foot, and the things you do with an arm or leg;  the rules are quite clear on that.

[Xenon]

People really intend to let a strength 1-2 + agility 1-2  human player get 2 feet and 2 hands with agility 6, strength 6 and a total of +12 armor. For 1.00 Essence (with enough room for an attribute enhancement on top of that...)?

There's a world of difference between the things you do with a hand or foot, and the things you do with an arm or leg;  the rules are quite clear on that.

True.
Was mostly thinking of "Getting +12(!) dice to resist damage before adding a jacket and a helmet", but I guess it also apply to stuff such as "Shooting a gun" as well as "Using strength to absorb more recoil when you fire the gun".