[Solomon]

It's Shadowrun, it's all used for Evil. Nobody pays Do Gooders. They work for self respect and shit like that, I shoot people in the face for money

[Crash_00]

I never called form fitting armor broken, carefully read the passage and what I say is that it breaks the rules established previously.

And I said it doesn't break the rules system. If you read the form fit rules they modify the current system, they don't break it.

What I've called it, repeatedly, is badly written. There's one option that clearly breaks the rules , and thus is better then everything that obeys them. That's bad game design. It's like deciding that Monopoly is too hard, so the battleship can roll 3d6 and discard one of choice to deiced it's movement. It's clunky, breaks the rules and means every game is battleship vs battleship. If you'd like to debate that Form Fit armor is a well written bit of game creation, I'd be happy to hear that. At this point, I'd argue the point with Rob Boyle, but if we have exhausted that topic I'd be happy to drop it at this point.

Well if you were allowed to wear form-fit and only form-fit then you'd have a point. This isn't the case. Instead, the form-fit rules are more akin to wanting to get all the properties of one color in order to make more money in Monopoly. Everyone playing monopoly wants to do this. Every shadowrunners wants the most armor they can get (ok, so not every shadowrunner, just the smart ones) without compromising themselves. Form-fit is not meant to be worn by itself, its meant to be worn with other armors.

As far as the RAW debate about the deliberaly comical example of stacking Form Fit, my last word on it..

When worn in combination with other pieces of armor, the form fit armor rating is added to the other armor’s rating (ignore the rule that only the highest value applies in the case of formfitting armor). When determining encumbrance, however, add only half the rating (round down) of formfitting body armor to the ratings of other armor when comparing them to the wearer’s Body x 2 (see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4).

The subject of the sentence is not all suits of form fitting armor in the world, it's the specific suit of formfitting armor worn. The only respite it gives is that it refers to other armor in singular, meaning that form fitting armor should never stack with more then one suit of armor. You can still abuse it by using two suits of form fit armor.

In the bold sentence, please point out the reference to a specific form-fit suit. There is none. Instead there is a reference to the form-fit armor rating. The part in parenthesis is clearly speaking of the form-fit's relationship with the other armor's rating.

Thus is I wear two form-fit full suits, or hell lets say eight form-fit full suits just for fun, I'm still only taking the highest of the form-fit suits as my form-fit armor rating as per the standard rules at 6/2. The other armor's rating is then added to that because their is a special case for it (as covered by the part in parenthesis).

The only part that clearly refer's to a single form-fit suit is the second line that I've underlined for convenience. So you get rating from one suit and encumbrance from all of them.

Could it be better written? Yes. But the RAW clearly follows the RAI and it takes a lot of counter-intuitive monkeying about to try and make a claim that it doesn't.

[Joush]

Alright, I'm done with Form Fitting armor, both of us are just going in circles at this point.

I really, really don't like this simile, however.

Instead, the form-fit rules are more akin to wanting to get all the properties of one color in order to make more money in Monopoly. Everyone playing monopoly wants to do this. Every shadowrunners wants the most armor they can get (ok, so not every shadowrunner, just the smart ones) without compromising themselves. Form-fit is not meant to be worn by itself, its meant to be worn with other armors.

In Monopoly, creating a monopoly (getting all the properties of a certain type or color) is a matter of luck, bargaining and strategy. To do so is the objective of the game, yes, but it's not possible to do so at the very beginning of the game and is a complex matter of adapting on the fly with a great many factors that complicate it.

Getting Form Fitting armor, on the other hand, involves no strategy, luck or negotiation. The heaviest cost 1600 with 8 availability and no restriction, putting it very easily within the means of  any Shadowrunner at the game's set-up phase. From a game standpoint, it's high reward, no risk, and minimal cost. That makes it a no brainier, something that a good game -shouldn't have-.

[Mason]

Spider goats. Ugh.
-Jn-

Spider goat, spider goat! Does whatever a spider goat can!

The real problem with cyberlimbs is when the player really abuses them. Just to prove how horrifying they can be, I present "The Artificial Man":
Link: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4842.0

[Crash_00]

Every good game has no brainers. Most people just don't realize they are even taking those routes. The problem seems to be with the idea that the no brainer in question is a piece of gear, and again I have to ask "Why wouldn't you take a highly concealable piece of armor that is easy to wear with heavier, sturdier armor if you were in a job with high chances of getting shot?" The form-fit fits perfectly with the feel of the game.

I still don't understand how form-fit is such a horrible no-brainer, but Smartlink is just fine. Yes form-fit appears to offer a higher bonus, but unless you're a high body character, it much easier to deal damage than take it. The argument put forth earlier was that Smartlink is so iconic to the game, but Form-fit has been around since the Street Samurai Catalog (1990) which was only about a year after first edition came out. Before fourth edition, form-fit was much more common on runners than Smartlinks.

You went with monopoly, and dislike my argument however much you want, its still much closer than what you proposed. Shadowrun is a game where 90% of the time, you can start off completely proficient in what your character does as his role. I can build starting characters that roll 50 dice to soak. I can build characters that roll 24 dice to hit. I can build characters that 20 dice hacking. This is without hyper specializing to the point of being useless in every other area. Everything that makes your character better at his job and is attainable is a no brainer for that character and requires no real skill or luck to get in shadowrun.

Alright, I'm done with Form Fitting armor, both of us are just going in circles at this point.

You never showed any reason why the form-fit entry should refer to a single suit, and that is a key to stacking multiple suits of form-fit. Sure you've said that it is talking about a single suit of form-fitting armor, but you haven't proved it.

Without proving your point, its not a circle, its a dead end for your argument.

[Joush]

I'm sorry you don't understand how my previous post have explained the flawed langue in the write up for Form Fitting armor. I don't think it's useful to continue this discussion though, and your tone has become very combative. Your ability to break shadowrun is hardly on trial here and your need to "win" what amounts to a disagreement in what is the subject of a single sentience in the rulebook for a game is getting a touch silly. If you prefer, I'll coincide the point that nobody should ever stack form fitting armor.

Smartlink is less of a problem because there are characters that won't use it (many mages, adepts, even wired characters that don't focus on ranged combat) and it has many factors that complicate it (wireless vulnerabilities, dependence on some kind of smartlink enabled eye device, it's a restricted item, ect.) . It's a very common, rather then overpowered, option. It's also in the corebook, something that gets it a little slack. (Nobody has to buy an extra book or fall behind the power curve because of smartlink.).

[Crash_00]

I'm sorry you don't understand how my previous post have explained the flawed langue in the write up for Form Fitting armor. I don't think it's useful to continue this discussion though, and your tone has become very combative.

I'm not combative, I'm just pointing out that rather than responding to a point, you're feigning around it with a we're going in circles (and now you didn't understand) statement. Your previous post that "explained" the flawed language had a flaw. Without counter-pointing that flaw, you haven't explained anything.

Your ability to break shadowrun is hardly on trial here and your need to "win" what amounts to a disagreement in what is the subject of a single sentience in the rulebook for a game is getting a touch silly. If you prefer, I'll coincide the point that nobody should ever stack form fitting armor.

You brought the issue up. I'm not trying to "win" anything, all that debating gets you on these forums is negative rep. I'm merely supporting my points. RAI was never an issue, it's RAW and I still believe stacking isn't even possible by RAW.

Smartlink is less of a problem because there are characters that won't use it (many mages, adepts, even wired characters that don't focus on ranged combat) and it has many factors that complicate it (wireless vulnerabilities, dependence on some kind of smartlink enabled eye device, it's a restricted item, ect.) . It's a very common, rather then overpowered, option. It's also in the corebook, something that gets it a little slack. (Nobody has to buy an extra book or fall behind the power curve because of smartlink.).

No Brainers:
Vision Enhancement 3 (300¥ + 50¥ for contacts 1)
Audio Enhancement 3 (300¥ + 10¥ for earbuds 1)
Spatial Recognizer (100¥ + 10¥ for earbuds 1)
Non Conductivity 6 modification (1200¥)
Thermal Vision Glasses (100¥ + 25¥ for glasses 1)

Smartlink only costs 500¥ plus 50¥ or 100¥ (glasses or contacts/goggles) and another 25¥ for the associated image link. For 50¥ you can skinlink it to your commlink (which every runner should have) and not worry about wireless interference. Being restricted is hardly going to be an issue since anything you'll be using it with is going to be restricted as well. Assuming you're going the legit route an Ares Predator and skinlinked smartlink glasses system would set you back a total of 350¥ + 625¥ + 800¥ = 1775¥ and you have a weapon with +2 dice to hit legally owned (if you don't care about legality the total is only 975¥). Less than half a BP for a backup plan. That +2 dice bonus is even more important for characters that aren't highly skilled in firearms as it gives them the push they need to actually hit rather than just increasing damage a little.

I'm failing to see how form-fit is really overpowered in comparison.
Avg. Character with/without form-fit:
Assuming 6/6 encumbrance and 3 Body.
With:  12 dice/10 dice (4 hits, 3 hits)
Without: 9 dice/9 dice (3 hits, 3 hits)
Form-fit increased Ballistic by a hit and impact by a third of a hit.

Smartlink gives a +2 die bonus 2/3rds of a hit, but if that bonus equates to a hit, it either allows the character to deal damage (it was the hit needed to succeed) which will range from 4P (soaked by average character with form-fit) to 6P/-1AP on average (dealt 2-3 damage against average character), or it will boost the damage of the attack by one (it was an extra hit) which directly negates the form-fit bonus.

[Mäx]

Smartlink is less of a problem because there are characters that won't use it (many mages, adepts, even wired characters that don't focus on ranged combat)

Why wouldn't they use it, there absolutely no reason for someone to not use it and a lot of reason why they should, it's one of the biggest nobrainers in the whole game.

[Joush]

Ok.. Let's run down this the last time.

When worn in combination with other pieces of armor, the form fit armor rating is added to the other armor’s rating (ignore the rule that only the highest value applies in the case of formfitting armor). When determining encumbrance, however, add only half the rating (round down) of formfitting body armor to the ratings of other armor when comparing them to the wearer’s Body x 2 (see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4).

The subject of the sentience is a suit of form fitting armor. We can tell this because if the subject of the sentience is the form fit armor rating the sentience is the incoherent ramblings of a madman. Thus the rules described are true for a singular suit of form fitting armor, worn. They also create an exemption, or break, the existing rules for armor stacking as described.

You can't wear a form fitting armor rating, so it can't be the subject of the sentience. Yes, this is nit-picking lawyer talk, but it's also correct.

This is a minute grammatical issue, however, you seem to take far more offense in that I consider form fitting armor a badly written bit of rules for the game. That is a subjective matter but I feel my opinion is well warranted.

That smartlink is just as bad isn't really relevant to the current discussion, other then that you could add it to your own list of overpowered options, I suppose, but that the game has other items that all characters should invest in is a problem. The thing is, while a minor boost in offensive power or a fair boost in perception at no cost but having to write it on your sheet and remember to use it is a small problem, a fair boost to armor with only one option to get it and no choice of how to employ it is worse, in my opinion.

As you yourself pointed out, there are many options to get perception boosters. The only reason non-conductive armor is an item that I've called out already as overpowered.

I don't think either of us will lose any sleep if we just agree to disagree on this. Again, may we consider this line of discussion dropped?

Smartlink is less of a problem because there are characters that won't use it (many mages, adepts, even wired characters that don't focus on ranged combat)

Why wouldn't they use it, there absolutely no reason for someone to not use it and a lot of reason why they should, it's one of the biggest nobrainers in the whole game.

It's illegal without a license, they may have no firearm to use it with, they might prefer that their skill with shooting people -not- be effected by the Gremlins negative quality, they may be a two-guns ambidextrous gunslinger, ect.

[Crash_00]

The subject of the sentience is a suit of form fitting armor. We can tell this because if the subject of the sentience is the form fit armor rating the sentience is the incoherent ramblings of a madman. Thus the rules described are true for a singular suit of form fitting armor, worn. They also create an exemption, or break, the existing rules for armor stacking as described.

You can't wear a form fitting armor rating, so it can't be the subject of the sentience. Yes, this is nit-picking lawyer talk, but it's also correct.

This is a minute grammatical issue, however, you seem to take far more offense in that I consider form fitting armor a badly written bit of rules for the game. That is a subjective matter but I feel my opinion is well warranted.

I've stated already that it could be better written, but its no worse than most of the items in the SR4 books really. That said, the bold part is what I take issue with in your argument.

While I agree that you can't wear a form-fit armor rating, I disagree with the conclusion you draw from it. You insist that the subject must then become a single piece of form-fit armor (be it shirt, half, or full). Why exactly must it be a single suit of armor and not all form-fit armor. Just because the subject given isn't valid doesn't mean you get to make up the subject you want.

Anytime you try to decipher a grammatical error, you must look at what it says and the context of what it means to say. Its just like translating in that way.

Currently, it literally says you wear a form-fit armor rating (which is not available for purchase anywhere in the book) that stacks with the other armor's rating. Technically if you want to run it that way, none of the listed armor (FFBA Shirt, FFBA Half, FFBA Full) follow the stack rules given since they are not actually named form-fit armor rating.

That said, the use of "the form-fit armor rating" rather than "the form-fit armor's rating" heavily implies that the sentence means all form-fit armor rather than the rating of any single piece. After all, the author did use "the other armor's rating" in the next part implying a single piece of armor for the other armor.

[Critias]

Hey guys, why not agree to disagree before we get a thread locked?  I think you've both stated your opinions on form-fit pretty clearly by now, let's try to chill instead of wrecking weekends with head-desking in frustration, getting the mods involved, and all that assorted bad stuff. 

[FastJack]

Two people are lucky a certain moderator went to bed early last night.

Joush and Crash_00, please continue your discussion through PMs, since you've both made your points (numerous times) in the public forums allowing us readers to see both side. If it continues, warnings will be coming.

[Mason]

Honestly, in non power gaming groups, the body suit and the smartlinks just don't go on certain characters. We go for WWCD first and foremost, and then powergame what the character would do massively. In other words, they are not necessarily no brainers except from a min/max perspective.

If someone is trying to build the most effective character possible, then both of those are a must.

[The Big Peat]

Honestly, in non power gaming groups, the body suit and the smartlinks just don't go on certain characters. We go for WWCD first and foremost, and then powergame what the character would do massively. In other words, they are not necessarily no brainers except from a min/max perspective.

If someone is trying to build the most effective character possible, then both of those are a must.

WWCD?

[Medicineman]

What would Conan Do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30tyaXv6EI

Hough (da Je)
Medicineman