[UmaroVI]

If you apply the weakest limb rule to partial hands and feet, you're going to see costs go up and certain character types shy away from the idea of getting armored hands and feet.  After all no sam out there wants to be stuck at their natural maximum. 

You only include partial limbs in tests where they are the ONLY thing used - the weakest limb rule does not apply to partial limbs.

[Mäx]

Also, the thing about some people not being able to afford to look low class is about the Face.

Thats what the case mod is for, to make the Face's cyberarm in to a stylish fashion statement, for example the one my combat-face Sasha has is golden.

[Kontact]

Also, the thing about some people not being able to afford to look low class is about the Face.

Thats what the case mod is for, to make the Face's cyberarm in to a stylish fashion statement, for example the one my combat-face Sasha has is golden.

Which works fine as long as you don't mind drawing attention to yourself.

It's a limitation.

It's like taking sensitive system.  You're basically saying "I am never going to be able to go this path without taking penalties."  And like sensitive system, maybe you'll never want to go down that path.

But don't kid yourself, you're giving up something by having a face who can't walk through a MAD scanner without having a chat with the security staff about her bitchin' cyberarm.

[Kontact]

If you apply the weakest limb rule to partial hands and feet, you're going to see costs go up and certain character types shy away from the idea of getting armored hands and feet.  After all no sam out there wants to be stuck at their natural maximum. 

You only include partial limbs in tests where they are the ONLY thing used - the weakest limb rule does not apply to partial limbs.

The suggestion was that you should apply it.  As in if, not when.  Ala. house rule. 

After all, if you have a rock-steady arm and shitty hands, you won't be able to shoot.

[Crash_00]

What part of that seems to suggest to you that other armor can not refer to a suit of form fit armor? The passage describes the special rules for Form Fit. Any suit of Form Fit uses those rules. If you use two suits of Form Fit, those rules apply to both.

The subject of the sentence is a worn suit of armor in combination with other suits of armor. The form fit armor rating of that armor is added to the other armor's rating.

There is nothing in that sentence that suggest you can't wear two suits of form fit armor and have the rules apply to them both.

Alright I'll break it down for you:
The main piece.

When worn in combination with other pieces of armor, the
form-fit armor rating is added to the other armor’s rating

The problem bit for stacking multiple form-fit armors.

the form-fit armor rating

Form-fit armor is not the name of any actual piece of armor. You can't argue that your form-fit body armor full suit will stack with another form-fit body armor full suit, because it doesn't say that form-fit body armor full suits stack with all worn armor. It says that the form-fit armor rating is added to the other armor's rating. Both suits of form-fit have to fall under that first form-fit  part because they are form-fitting armor.

Form-fit armor cannot be non form-fit armor.

Throw as many full suits on as you want. They are still going to give you a whopping 6/2 armor total (and 3/1 encumbrance each).

Now you could try to argue that the next bit over rides this:

(ignore the rule that only the highest value applies in the case of form-fitting
armor).

But reading them in context together, this bit clearly refers to the other armor part of the first piece, not to the form-fit part.

[Medicineman]

If one of my Players would ever dare to Ask me wther he can put Two FFBA  I'd give him the

Fluff Argumentation :
Its called Form Fitting because it is.....Form Fitting & Taylor Made !
If You put it on another Form Fitting Armor it ....doesn't fit the Form anymore !!
(thats also the Reason why you can't put PSP on FFBA !!)

If You still insist on putting on Two or more ,I'll get this http://www.your3dsource.com/images/newspapergif.gif

Hough !
Medicineman

[Joush]

Wait wait wait...

You suggest that people can layer as many suits of Form Fit as they want, because the rules do not expressly state that you can't, and in the same post call someone ELSE disingenuous?

Wow.

The rules shouldn't have to expressly forbid what is obviously ludicrous, and the GM should forbid it if he's worth his pizza. The book would be 10,000 pages if they had to cover every possible contingency - the rules are there to limit stacking, and to suggest that anything can be repeatedly layered is pretty obviously NOT in the spirit of those rules.

Trying to break the system by feigned obliviousness is the lowest form of rules lawyering.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

My whole point is that some options in the book have rules that are overpowered, mostly by being badly written and interacting poorly with other rules. My initial point wasn't the layering of several FF, because it is silly to layer them, but that form fit has very badly written rules. As an illustration just how bad those rules are, I pointed out that nothing in the rules forbids you from being a cyberleper with four suits of form fitting armor on.

The idea that I'm calling for a book that covers every possible contingency is reduclous. If anything, I'm calling for less rules, or less things that break existing rules. The problem with Form Fitting armor is that it deliberaly breaks the armor system established in the core book. The exemption, that is only for Form Fitting armor, creates a situation where Form Fit is far too good and has reduclous interactions, like what happens if you try to wear two suits of form fit at once.

Better to keep rules simple and elegant. One sentence of extra rules, in every example I gave, could fix the problem. Removing cyber-armor as an option on partial limbs. Dropping Form Fit altogether in favor of introducing optional rules that would increase armor and surviabilty across the board. Any of the many, many ways to make Stick and Shock less overpowered.

[Crash_00]

The problem with Form Fitting armor is that it deliberaly breaks the armor system established in the core book. The exemption, that is only for Form Fitting armor, creates a situation where Form Fit is far too good and has reduclous interactions, like what happens if you try to wear two suits of form fit at once.

It doesn't break the system, it modifies it for the purposes of form-fit only.

Now take a step back and look at the big picture. You're talking about how overpowering it would be to wear multiple suits of form-fit if you decide to interpret the rules in an absurd way, and at the same time griping that the form-fit rules are only available in form-fit.

If more armor used the rules, then the way form-fit is written they would be stackable and thus horribly over-powered.

Form-fit isn't a namebrand item. Instead of looking at form-fit as a single item that everyone takes, look at it as a line of items that most people usually own one or two of. Kind of like how vehicles have the similar models sections.

Rather than make a dozen different entries for concealable lightweight armor, which given Catalysts track record would have caused issues that still wouldn't have errata, they just lumped them all into form-fit. Want a concealable vest, form-fit Shirt. Want a full body concealed suit, form fit full.

As for cyber armor, while its still powerful, I agree with Kontact that it is installed on the limb, not in it due to the text. It should be blatant and bulky. Wear gloves over it, fine. That sec guard is still going to look twice at mr. gorilla hands assuming he doesn't ping you immediately with his cyberware scanner.

Dropping Form Fit altogether in favor of introducing optional rules that would increase armor and surviabilty across the board.

Dislike it as much as you want, but Form-fit does increase survivability across the board. There are already plenty of other optional rules in Arsenal if you don't like form-fit and would rather go with those, but that doesn't make form-fit "broken".

[Joush]

I never called form fitting armor broken, carefully read the passage and what I say is that it breaks the rules established previously.

 What I've called it, repeatedly, is badly written. There's one option that clearly breaks the rules , and thus is better then everything that obeys them. That's bad game design. It's like deciding that Monopoly is too hard, so the battleship can roll 3d6 and discard one of choice to deiced it's movement. It's clunky, breaks the rules and means every game is battleship vs battleship. If you'd like to debate that Form Fit armor is a well written bit of game creation, I'd be happy to hear that. At this point, I'd argue the point with Rob Boyle, but if we have exhausted that topic I'd be happy to drop it at this point.


I see what you mean about form fit, Crash, but that isn't really my problem. I wouldn't mind if the only types of armor in the game were Concealable, Light, Medium and Heavy.


As far as the RAW debate about the deliberaly comical example of stacking Form Fit, my last word on it..

When worn in combination with other pieces of armor, the form fit armor rating is added to the other armor’s rating (ignore the rule that only the highest value applies in the case of formfitting armor). When determining encumbrance, however, add only half the rating (round down) of formfitting body armor to the ratings of other armor when comparing them to the wearer’s Body x 2 (see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4).

The subject of the sentence is not all suits of form fitting armor in the world, it's the specific suit of formfitting armor worn. The only respite it gives is that it refers to other armor in singular, meaning that form fitting armor should never stack with more then one suit of armor. You can still abuse it by using two suits of form fit armor.

For the record: I'd never stack formfitting armor. I don't take Stick and Shock with anything but shotguns. I'd never give someone an armored cyberhand. I'd never go for a RoboCop build with one Agility, Strength and Body but a cybertorso, two arms and two legs with straight nines. (It's notable that I don't even think that is a really overpowered option, I just don't like it.)

[Joush]

Which works fine as long as you don't mind drawing attention to yourself.

It's a limitation.

It's like taking sensitive system.  You're basically saying "I am never going to be able to go this path without taking penalties."  And like sensitive system, maybe you'll never want to go down that path.

But don't kid yourself, you're giving up something by having a face who can't walk through a MAD scanner without having a chat with the security staff about her bitchin' cyberarm.

I get what you mean, but most runners are going to look like hard, lower middle class types anyway. The number of shadowrunners that can walk among the rich and powerful while fitting in is small enough that it's a large part of one of the common specialties. (The face). A body 5, charisma 2, strength 4 chummer with an overcoat, scars and a refusal to put his back to a door is going to fit in better with cops and robbers then the rich and famous, and won't really stand out if one of his arms is carbon fiber and steel with a few bits of ceramic appliqué armor.  When all your friends and foes look like Rick Deckard or Jet Black, being too smooth makes you stand out more then being too rough.

[Mäx]

Which works fine as long as you don't mind drawing attention to yourself.

She's a Dryad, she's gonna draw attention no matter what

And when you walk into the high class establishment wearing designer dress from Ami Feathers/Zoë de Paris i seriously doubt that the security guard is gonna start to hassle you just because you have a cybernetic arm.

[Kontact]

Well, I suppose that's just playing to your strengths then.
Or covering weakness with weakness.

[JoeNapalm]

FFBA doesn't break the rules, or even have a special case.

There is an entire section on stackable armor in SR4A.

Arguing your point from the position the absurd doesn't help your cause, even if FFBA is too good to pass up.

 -Jn-

[Xzylvador]

So, great, that's all settled? Maybe a good time to get back on topic and name things that are overpowered to the point that it's broken.

(I'm making a new char and seek to draw from your collective munchkininess. )

[Joush]

FFBA doesn't break the rules, or even have a special case.

What are you talking about Joe? If Form Fit armor followed normal armor stacking rules it would count only if it was the highest armor and you would add it's armor rating to other armor to determine encumbrance.

So, great, that's all settled? Maybe a good time to get back on topic and name things that are overpowered to the point that it's broken.

(I'm making a new char and seek to draw from your collective munchkininess. )

Dear god.. it's being used for Evil!

A slightly odd option, but not one that I seriously think is overpowered: If you get your hacker up to 3 normal IP, you can hack in the meat (AR) with very little loss over going into hot sim VR and much less risk. And I assume really annoy old school deckers. "He doesn't have a headjack.. he isn't even going into VR! He's just sitting there typing on a virtual keyboard like someone hit fast forward on the VCR!"

Because they aren't in VR they don't take any hit if they have to stop hacking for a second to have a wild shootout or seduce a beautiful troll.