[White_Knight]

Does anyone have any info on this?

We know the Sioux have the Wildcats (Special Forces), the Matrix Warband, and the Spiritwalkers (Shamans/Magicians), but what about regular forces, like Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army, what would the Sioux and NAN equivalents of these be? Did they just copy ranks over from the former U.S./Canada or come up with their own?

[lurkeroutthere]

Given the amount of pseudo nationalistic pride they'd probably make some ranks up based on their own terms but the end result would most likely be the same, hard to argue with what works right? As to maintaining the different branches and such, probably not. Military power is a joke in SR, so there's less incentive to keep it around especially if you have a magical edge.

/Bitter a little bit

[Crimsondude]

My assumption has always been that the Sioux Defense Force is similar in structure to the Israeli Defense Force. The same for the Salish Defense Force when it was spun out of the Rangers to fight Tsimshian (and no doubt structured upon "consultation" by the Sioux). The Salish Rangers and Pueblo Security Force are basically militarized police forces.

[Simagal]

Many of the plains tribes had warrior societies. Some have been kept around and would definitely influence the military for both better and worse.

[Wakshaani]

Nothing's ever been out officially (And, once again, the desire for a military book shines), but it's safe to say that the NAN all used overall conscription, where everyone would serve in the military, akin to Israel, since, you know ... hostile borders and small population. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them have lots of mercenaries on call during the first few years, gradually phasing them out as their own capabilities improved.

Few have a navy, but a large army is a given and a passable airforce. The big weapons are, of course, the dedicated warriors and the magicians. These days, the rest of North America has caught up with everything shy of the Great Ghost Dance in terms of magical support, so a new outbreak of war might not go so well for them.

Then again, the Sioux are darn good fighters and the PCC has a kickin' economy that allows for screamin' high tech. The UCAS could find itself matched pretty well...

[Nath]

Depends how much you want to reboot SR history because of NAN demographics and all that.

As far as canon goes, the NAN were established at the end of a six-years long guerilla against US and Canadian armed forces and federal agencies. The entire Amerindian population was put into detention and escaped so, basically, their entire people were at war (ah, the joy of fighting fourteen years-old boys who spent half his life learning to hide from you and hate you).

Mercenaries, I don't know. The whole Resources Rush/Amerindian War thing rather seems to be the classic corporate-backed governments vs. native freedom fighters, so mercenaries would rather have been on the other side. Well, on the other hand, I guess Russian, Cuban or Venezuelan companies would be ready to help.

Shadows of North America specifically mentions a mandatory one-year military service in the Sioux for men and women at 18, followed by four years of reserve. Sioux has the largest military forces in the NAN, suggesting more populated Salish-Shidhe and Pueblo may not use military service, or simply be cooler about it.

[Wakshaani]

Well, the Sioux and PCC are bordering the UCAS and the CAS. The Salish-Sidhe, not so much.(Okay, technically they border the UCAS due to Seattle, but.)

The former Canadian territories know that all they have to do is retreat and let the cold handle things.

[Crimsondude]

SSC has a Coast Guard but no Navy as I recall because it's basically the only NAN state that needs one.

Again, PCC and SSC have militarized police forces, SecForce and Rangers respectively. Though there is a division between Civil and Military in PSF, they rotate between sides (like the Tir Peace Force and S-K security). The SSC finally created a separate military, the Salish Defense Force, from Ranger units when it was battling Tsimshian in 2061. I can't recall AMC naval resources offhand, but I believe they are anemic to nonexistent, which is nice since the UCAS Navy does operate in the Great Lakes (the USS Wolverine light carrier group was parked off Chicago when the Wall went up in 2055). I assume it was partly politics because it's not like the nearest Air Force bases to Chicago are in Canada or something.

[Wakshaani]

We're really gonna have to do that military book down the line, James, all there is to it.

[Crimsondude]

I should have an idea or two by June.

[beowulf_of_wa]

i bet you have the ideas now, but not the time to lay them out sensibly for SR.

[Crimsondude]

Something like that.

[Digital_Viking]

(And, once again, the desire for a military book shines)

Man that would

1) BE AWESOME

2) Something I would love to contribute to - even just a TOE

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

2) Something I would love to contribute to - even just a TOE

I'll get the knife.

In a serious vein ... *cough*

Sea:  Salish-Sidhe, Tsimshian and the like - and I have no doubt at all that the PCC had to get into that game, considering their 'acquisition' of LA -- all of them are essentially non-force-projecting nations.  Even Aztlan still has only a brown-water (as compared to a blue-water, or major ocean-going) navy.  In the SR world, the only true naval powers are the UCAS (which as of 2072 still maintains nuclear-powered ships in both major oceans), possibly the CAS (though I seem to recall something about them being only brown-water as well), and probably England.  The only naval superpower is Japan, potentially supplemented as necessary by the various Japanacorps' ships.  Please note that while an army takes and holds land, it's primarily the job of the navy to actually project your force.

Land:  As stated, at least the Sioux nation has a required-enlistment period.  (You really can't do anything with one, though - doesn't Israel require 2 years?)  In general, however, I would expect the small-nation framework to fit all of the NAN states: the Army fulfills all sorts of duties, from Border Patrol fence-watching, to HTR teams, to SpecOps, to 'Highway Patrol' and even baseline traffic control in emergency situations.  They are the National Guard, after all.  While their actual full time roster may be really rather low, I'd be willing to bet that the 'reserve' units are active two weeks out of every eight.  Again, I would expect most of the NAN nations - if not many of the non-Euro nations in SR - to follow that 'vibe'.

Air:  Thing about air is that usually - or at least currently - it takes some very specialized training to accomplish.  In 2074, while your Air Forces may be relatively small (after all, you can cross the entire Sioux nation at mach speed in what, less than an hour?) I'd be willing to bet they're all highly trained and highly motivated.

Integration:  The NAN has always been especially noted as being well-integrated when it comes to magic.  A mage embedded in a unit is capable of some very top-end tactical juju, and because he's trained with the men he's assigned to, he'll be able to react swiftly, rely on their protection, and trust and be trusted at a level 'specially assigned' mages wouldn't.  Imagine your back-seater in your fighter not only handling your e-war, but also being a summoner specialist.  And with technomancers becoming perhaps more accepted, imagine your back-seater being a true wizard when it comes to e-war ...

As a side note - lurker, do you really think military power is considered a joke in Shadowrun?  WTF do you think Fort Lewis is?  Who the hell is Angela Colloton?  Every nation on (and probably off!) the planet relies on a military in some form to protect its borders and its interests.  Magic has its limits, and though talented, trained, and integrated magic makes the tech hit harder, and though magic is currently ahead in the arms race with tech, it's person-specific.  You can train any corn-fed hick into a competent soldier, and you can train any thousand corn-fed hicks into a coordinated battalion - but it's chance and luck as to whether or not you catch any mages in there.

A standard shadowrun team cannot (should not!) stand against a coordinated and aware military platoon; extreme high-velocity violence is what they are trained for, with things like 'sneak up on the bastard' and 'cut his throat' added on afterwards.  Military power remains the Big Gun of Shadowrun, one that PC shadowrunners are by dint of their very positions unable to use.  That military power may be exercised much more precisely than even in present day special operations, but military power being a joke?

...

[Wakshaani]

Magicians are still rare, even in the NAN. One per platoon of 26 men (or so) is too common, so you're looking at one per company, in general. (A company is somewhere between 80 and 220 men. The NAN are on the small side, so call it 100 men to a company, with the magician attached to the command squad.

So, off the top of my head, a typical NAN force org might be:

5 man fireteam... this is the basic unit, with a corporal in charge.
A platoon is five fireteams, four standard, one a command team with a sergeant and a nice radio for calling in air support/artillery/etc.
A company is four platoons, plus a five-man command squad with Captain, a magcian (Shaman, most likely), a Lieutenant, and two sergeants as advisors. (They'd like to go up to five platoons, but, manpower being what it is...)

After that, it gets sketchier. FIgure four companies to a battalion (Topped by a major), four battalions to a regiment (Topped by a colnel), then brigades and divisions with generals on top, but are pretty much never fielded as such.

The REAL strength, of course, is the special ops side of things. This is where the NAN eat the UCAS' lunch. The standard military, they're outnumbered and outgunned. (The PCC, of course, has the highest-tech on trhe continent, by and large, with amazing fighter craft and drones out the yin-yang. They're bound to do it all differently.)

As for the CAS, they were a most-brown water navy, with a pair of small-to-medium carriers, but they ratched up a Supercarrier lately (The Kitty Hawk), and have three more on the way. They've always been an isolationist nation, however, so who knows what they have in mind for those things. (One's up and running, one's being built, and the other two are scheduled, but no actual work done yet.) The largest military in terms of raw manpower, with good tech on the average soldier, but special forces are weak and the airforce is a bit behind the tech curve I *think*. The UCAS has less troops, and less well-equipped, than the CAS, but a better airforce and navy. An interesting set of checks and balances, for certain.