[nojosecool]

So a couple sessions back, I had one player that was daring me (through character actions, not OOC words) to impose consequences on him for his actions.  We were playing Dawn of the Artifacts: Dusk, so if anyone is familiar with it you know we ended up in the feral city of Lagos almost immediately.  One example of the goading was that he strangled a 7-year old kid who he caught picking the pocket of one of the team members.  A local came up and told him to stop, and earned a headbutt for trying to help the child.  This had been going on for a while, and I felt it was time to do something about it.

Just before the fateful incident, he said (and I quote), "We're going to be in trouble when we get back to a city with LAWS and LAW ENFORCEMENT."  Keep this in mind, as it basically sums up all of his actions in Lagos up to this point.

Anyways, this was a side encounter of my own creation, so don't worry about spoilers.  It has almost nothing to do with the actual adventure.

One of the hyper-perceptive adepts noticed a man dressed in rags walk past the team, paying a little too much attention to them (he caught a glimpse of glowing eyes also, indicating astral perception).  He also remembered, thinking back, that he had seen this guy 3 or 4 times earlier that day, but he hadn't stood out until now.  The team decided to covertly try to corner the guy and question him.  He was a wily little shaman who ducked into a building, paid some guy a few Naira to walk out masked to look like the shaman, while the shaman walked away masked to look like the other guy.  He gave them the slip. 

*BEHIND THE SCENES* This guy wasn't supposed to be important, just curious.  The group is comprised of almost all awakened characters, so I was just trying to remind them that it's a little weird for four white guys to be walking around Lagos, especially if 3 are awakened.

The group mage sent out a watcher spirit to find this guy, and shortly thereafter the team's boss told them not to worry too much about him.  They headed back to the hotel.  After a few hours, the watcher spirit found the curious shaman sitting in a rocking chair drinking a cup of cocoa in a shack not too far from the market.  The boss told them to leave him alone (this isn't worth our time, we have more important things going on, etc.), but the belligerent player, a dwarf, wanted to go investigate.  The boss said, "whatever, as long as some of you stay here with me and you don't stay out too late.  Tomorrow is a big day and this isn't at the top of my priority list."

Eventually, the shaman saw the watcher spirit and banished it, then left the house.  The mage went with the dwarf, sort of, but stayed at a bar in the market while the dwarf checked out the house.  The dwarf tossed the place, which is understandable.  There was nothing magical there, and all evidence suggested that the shaman probably slept there occasionally and kept his lodge and real gear somewhere else.  What did the dwarf do then, you ask?  He poured himself a cup of the guy's cocoa and sat in his rocking chair.

The rest of the team was doing other things at this point, so every once in a while I would ask "Is the dwarf still in the rocking chair?"  The answer was always "Damn right."  After two hours (in game) went by, he heard a booming voice demanding that he come outside.  He slowly walked to the door, still holding the cocoa, and was greeted by 8 orks with AK-97's and shock batons standing in front of the shaman. 

*BEHIND THE SCENES* The shaman realized he would probably lose a straight fight with this dwarf, so he brought in help.  He bribed one of the local gangs to come throw the dwarf out of his house.  He had been keeping an eye on the place by astrally projecting.   The dwarf could not astrally perceive, so he had no idea.

The dwarf ran and jumped out a window to escape.  After two turns, though, the orks caught up with the stumpy dwarf.  They beat him unconscious and dragged him back to an abandoned warehouse.  They, of course, took all the money he had on him.  They ransomed the dwarf for 9000 Nuyen and his notoriety is now way up.  He is now known in Lagos as the guy who strangled a child and got beaten senseless in the same day.  The two events (both caught on cybereye recordings) make for a hell of a 2070 youtube-equivalent mashup.  I think every Johnson they run into in Lagos will be calling him "Pinata."

All things considered, it was actually a really fun encounter.  There was definitely a point when the player stopped having fun and realized he wasn't going to walk away from this one Scott-free.  This player really is fun to play with, and he may have just been looking for the line, which is fine.  However, I don't feel sorry for dragging his dwarf through the dirt for this one.  I will say this, though... Since this happened, he's been much easier to play with. 

The moral of the story is:  Just because there isn't a recognized and legitimate law enforcement agency in place does not mean that there is no law.  Gang-law is still law, and the consequences for crossing a gang are much less predictable and at least as perilous as for crossing, say, Lonestar.

[Goodwin]

Hey Nojosecool,

I think that worked out pretty good.  I've had similar problems with players thinking that since they're the heroes that means they should be able to walk out of any encounter at the end (even if its something as bad as random pyscho killing).  I had a bad enough time with this in D&D where you're supposed to be the heroes!  Luckily, I'll be undertaking Shadowrun without such players but the thought was still there and I can only imagine what they'd be like where you aren't supposed to be the good guy.

I think something like this worked out well because you showed a line without thrusting the mighty GM hand from the sky and crushing the life out of said bad player.  Especially by giving the offending player a chance to escape.  Some orks with Ak's walking up to the house is more believable then having it completely surrounded, and then also having heavy magic, tech, and anything else to stop him from fleeing.  It was believable in what they brought to the table!  And then he got a head-kickin', which is what someone should kind of expect when floating any shred of decency (not to mention then going to brag to the GM that he won't do anything about it, that's just BEGGIN' for something!). 

The best part is you didn't kill his character!  Its probably easier for the player to swallow then the Hand of GM coming down and squishing the PC, but also now he's got to live with the real game consequences of what he's done.

Pwned indeed!

[Canticle]

The moral of the story is:  Just because there isn't a recognized and legitimate law enforcement agency in place does not mean that there is no law.  Gang-law is still law, and the consequences for crossing a gang are much less predictable and at least as perilous as for crossing, say, Lonestar.

Nicely handled; I especially enjoyed the notoriety gained. I'm running a game set entirely in and around Lagos, and I am not as lenient as you are. Chocking a kid on the street in Ikeja would lead to Area Boys running in with AK-98s and the kid pulling a Cavalier Scout. In Mushin, it would be worse: a group of Awori gangers would probably tie you up and throw you in a pit for stoning if you broke Sharia.

I think something like this worked out well because you showed a line without thrusting the mighty GM hand from the sky and crushing the life out of said bad player.  Especially by giving the offending player a chance to escape.  Some orks with Ak's walking up to the house is more believable then having it completely surrounded, and then also having heavy magic, tech, and anything else to stop him from fleeing.  It was believable in what they brought to the table!

Lagos is fairly heavy magic. Not many drones or heavy tech around. The Daughters of Yemaja are a gang of all awakened women who specialize in combat spells that do not appreciate the abuse of children and women.

[gerzel]

Could have been worse for the player.  Could have had the Orks sell him to an organlegger to pay for the kid's medical bills if he didn't confirm that the kid was completely dead.  (If a shaman or paramed can get to an unconscious dying character quick enough that char can be brought back pretty far from off the brink.

[nojosecool]

Thanks guys.  It was a lot of fun putting that one together on the fly.  He almost spoon-fed me the perfect retaliation for his actions.  It was one of those cases where everything was in exactly the right place at the right time.

I should clarify, he did not kill the kid, or even come close to killing him.  He strangled him until he gave up some information about the guy who put him up to pickpocketing.  Actually, now that I think about it, the kid he strangled wasn't even the pickpocket.  Just a suspected accomplice, who basically got punished for daring to talk to the team while they got pickpocketed by someone else.

I kind of figured, in the relatively lawless streets of Lagos, any kind of organized retaliation would have taken longer than it would take for the characters to make a clean getaway.  I seriously thought he would stop when the local came up and told him to stop acting like a psychopath in public, but players will surprise you every time.

[Canticle]

HardExit and his crew had a shoot out with some Area Boys in Lagos. A block later they were surrounded by angry kids with AK-97s. That is somewhere in Feral Cities.
It's nice when the players make the GM's job of kicking them when they are down easier.

[Sentinemodo]

It good when done but not overdone. I've had 'heroes' case of a group here when GMing Missions.

My group decided to go openly against Johnson. They've all lived through this but it all ended up in replacing most of the players before the next run and much higher dropout rate in next one. So be careful about this. Sometime it's better to make a swift blow and eliminate one of the runners instead of pacifying entire team...

[Mystic]

Interesting solution, and totaly appropriate. I let my players know from moment-one that for every action both bood and bad, there will be reprocussions. In my games, rep is VERY important and will determine who will talk to you and what jobs you are approached for. And if you screw up and say, accidently hose an kid who happens to be the nephew of the locak Mafia Don....don't be supried if you get a visit from a bunch of guys namd Vinny and Tony packing a lot of hardware. And I also remind them that even they may perform the perfect run, they may still make enemies...you did just do a run AGAINST somone afterall and they may be seriously torked.

[Blond Goth Girl]

That was pretty awesome.

Our group doesn't really have any belligerent players.  Sometimes they fight amongst themselves and stuff like a loud obnoxious family but IC but when it comes down they defend each other.

[nojosecool]

Thanks for the warning Sentinemodo.  I appreciate the tips, and I think I will keep the notoriety penalty around 3 and keep it local to Lagos.  Mostly, I want to have the locals make fun of the dwarf because it will be funny.  They won't be in Lagos for more than the next 3 sessions, I'm pretty sure, so the group will feel the burn, but not be permanently scarred.  We have a great group, and the main goal is making the game the most fun for everyone.

Our group is trying to look out for each other now, I think.  It's hard to tell sometimes.  I tried to help get them to give a crap about each other by introducing them through a shadowrun that puts them in trouble with the same people, but they still don't all seem like they're invested in each other.  I guess that's the way of Shadowrun. 

I guess they can treat each other however they want, but they can't go around treating everyone however they want.  Dawn of the Artifacts is kind of nice in that I get to control an NPC that is their boss, is with them all the time, and follows a moral code.  I can kind of gently keep them from acting too crazy most of the time, but sometimes...

[Sentinemodo]

Interesting solution, and totaly appropriate. I let my players know from moment-one that for every action both bood and bad, there will be reprocussions. In my games, rep is VERY important and will determine who will talk to you and what jobs you are approached for. And if you screw up and say, accidently hose an kid who happens to be the nephew of the locak Mafia Don....don't be supried if you get a visit from a bunch of guys namd Vinny and Tony packing a lot of hardware. And I also remind them that even they may perform the perfect run, they may still make enemies...you did just do a run AGAINST somone afterall and they may be seriously torked.

I though it appropriate, I roleplayed it individually with each of them, gave them chance to fight (small one I admit). and it all ended up in their humiliation, reminding them of difference between seasoned fixer and a gang o fresh runners. But no one likes to be humiliated and you know how protective are players about their runners. They all expected that it will pan out good somehow and that fighting for the right cause will shield them. It didn't. And I feel bad about stripping them of the fun they had.

So make fun of the guy but see how he's taking that, if you find he had enough give him a chance to regain reputation and to be a star or kill the runner spectacular way and let him roll a knew one without the bad reputation weight

[Boogaboo]

So, what do you gusy do with people who are a-holes a lot (in game only) and are not afraid of death/beatings etc as they see your need of them playing as incentive to be a goof.
I have considered booting the guy, embarassing him etc but then the impact to teh rest of teh group is pretty high. It is suppose to be a free RPG no? Also, suppose to be fun.

Ideas?

[James McMurray]

Has talking out of game helped?

If not, screw the bastard. His fun isn't more important than everyone else's.

[nojosecool]

My approach would be to allow him to do something that completely sets the group back.  Give him enough rope to hang himself with (kind of like I did with the dwarf).  Let the group be the ones to tell him to quit being a jerk.  It doesn't ruin the game to allow him (and the group that he is screwing) to reap the consequences of his actions.  Even if the gaming session is ruined, it will be pretty clear who it was that ruined it.

[JimJungle]

I've had a similar experience with my runners. It was during one the "down" sessions, no current mission, when they had free time to do what they want. Which is never good, but it is entertaining. The 3 runners, Catman, Rhinotroll, and Badgerdwarf, when asked what they want to do, Catman says, "I want to go to a ganger bar and pick a fight with the biggest A-hole there." So they went down into 6th Reicht turf, a sixth world neo-nazi gang, and went to one of the local watering holes. To say that it was a bar gives bars all around a bad name. This place was a warehouse that had been taken by the gang, add a couple tables made from crates and a bar made from some planks on top of some barrels and thats what this place was. Needless to say this was a SINless place.
 They walk in, Catman leading they way like he owns the place, Badgerdwarf walking behind Catman, eyeing everything nervously, seeing what he can set on fire (he's addicted to fire). And Rhinotroll coming in last, he has frequented this place in the past and has a rep not to be messed with. Catman goes to the bar and loudely and rudely ask for a beer. The "bartender" gives him a dirty look and goes back to talking to another barfly. Well this really rubs the kitty's fur the wrong way. Rhinotroll goes to the bar and slams his hand on the bar, almost breaking it. This gets the barkeeps attention. He brings them a round of some sort of alchoholic drink.
 With drinks in hand they turn and start stink eyeing the rest of the patrons. Finally Catman eye falls upon the "Biggest A-hole in the bar". A big burly orc surrounded by four human males and two human females. All clearly Sixth Reicht members. Catman and Badgerdwarf walk up to their table. BD goes around the table and starts pawing the two women, eliciting shrieks of disgust. While Catman goes to the four humans and starts talking shit. Rhinotroll is still at the bar watching all this. As expected a fight breaks out. All unarmed, which CM and BD are not skilled with. They start losing as they are outnumbered and out skilled. After several rounds, Rhinotroll gets bored watching and decides to join. He shoots his grapple hand at one the gangers head, misses, but hits the guy behind him. He drags the poor shmuck to him and stomps on his stomach with his foot anchor, dealing a lethal blow. Like sharks smelling blood this gets them all in a frenzy. Catman gets tired of fighting unarmed and pulls out his katana. With Rhinotroll fighting the humans, Catman jumps a table and cuts off the head of the big orc. As the dust settles, only the bartender and two others remain besides the runners. Badgerdwarf readies a malatov cocktail to throw at the survivers, but is talked out of it. But as soon as they get outside of the bar, BD firebombs a parked car outside. And the three make thier getaway into the night. Ideas on repurcussions?