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Belligerent player PWNED

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wylie

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« Reply #15 on: <06-04-11/2011:50> »
 I think you handled that well

Long ago, editions away I had a player who was earning karma outside of the game, wrongly (which I was unaware of at the time), being rude, power playing, overshadowing the rest of the group,  etc.

set a bounty on him.
didn't get the hint.
other players trying to take him out
didn't get the hint
ended up having his character put in a deep freeze for 10 years
he insisted on knowing when the character would be released
don't think he ever got the hint

orewashinigamiza

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« Reply #16 on: <06-05-11/0029:48> »
Well if the bartender is still alive....you've got one angry bartender deep in ganger territory.  What if the gang sells out the runners, what if better yet, the runners get a job for or against a corp the gang has ties to.  Suddenly lonestar could be showing up, or they are expected and outmatched.  This could also earn them a negative rep, obviously the gangers will be keeping an eye out for them.  Perhaps someone will put a bounty on them and they'll have a tough survival mission in addition to all of this.  I'm not really great at GMing, but just some ideas.

Cass100199

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« Reply #17 on: <06-05-11/1505:02> »
Ideas on repercussions?

The "random" car was undercover KE detectives. Now they're copkillers and everywhere they go they are being pursued or engaging KE SRT forces. This leads to them being shunned from runner hangouts as they bring too much heat and they'r too busy running and hiding to take jobs and make money. Plus, the bad rep.
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Glyph

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« Reply #18 on: <06-05-11/1727:48> »
Oh noooo!!  They were mean to nazis!  Little chibi-Hitler is crying!  CRYING!!  :'(

Okay, seriously.  This is like Blues Brothers.  You beat up some neo-nazis, you have a bunch of annoying neo-nazis popping up at inconvenient times, or hassling your contacts, or messing with your doss.  Overall rep-wise, they probably won't get the notoriety gain they would if they had messed with a less universally despised group, but they will still maybe have people be a tad more cautious about hiring them, or getting involved with them.  In a few quarters, their rep might actually rise a bit.

Mystic

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« Reply #19 on: <06-06-11/0125:19> »
*edited*  Ideas on repurcussions?

A lot, that car could have been the ride used by another Runner team, and you just somehow hosed their run in some way.

The headless orc, Undercover Cop. Simple enough. Or could have been the relative of some Corp muck-muck who was slumming, or again, the member of some other runner team. Or worse, he was a fixer of some kind. The "revenge" angle can always be fun.

Or, say the runner's fixer hears about this through several contacts, learns that a lot of people are ticked off, and now...said fixer decides to wash their hands of them, effectively leaving them out to dry. New fixers are less than willing to work with "amaturs" and thugs who bring far too much attnetion to themselves. Also, the only jobs they can get are either low paying gigs or suicide runs. Heck, it also leaves them open to be used as fall-guys for other runners or Johnsons because...who would care if someone like them went away?
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Blond Goth Girl

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« Reply #20 on: <06-06-11/1639:57> »
Whatever you do, try not to give the belligerent or otherwise undesirable players/characters more focus/energy than the PCs who do your game justice.  Otherwise, you could be giving the bad players what they want but in a negative way while at the same time discouraging the great ones. 

   

nojosecool

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« Reply #21 on: <06-06-11/1645:18> »
GMing can be a lot like raising children, eh Goth Girl?
This is not Grand Theft Auto, this is Shadowrun.

Blond Goth Girl

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« Reply #22 on: <06-06-11/1658:32> »
It seems that way at times.

Denver Doc

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« Reply #23 on: <06-11-11/1413:40> »
<Climbing on the devil's soap box>

I get it.  I do. Players come in and do kinda silly, or just plain fragged up things.  As GMs we sometimes feel like we have a moral responsibility to take corrective actions.  I just want to point out that this game is about having fun not about a moral journey, though it can be weaved in and be fun.  More importantly consider what your shadow run generally includes; stealing, lying, manipulating people to your own advantage, killing, assault, organ legging, slavery, and things much much worse.  Runners are generally the BAD GUYS.

As to the kid who was "just" a distraction for stealing, well realize these are resources you need to survive, this is Lagos.  How many people has this kid helped rob who went from barely surviving to not being able to pay back that loan and now having to sell their sister or daughter into slavery or simply starved to death?  I'm not saying that the runner gets a pass or that his actions are acceptable in anyway, but I know I have often made the mistake of punishing my players for doing "evil" things.  In Lagos choking a thief in the street is probably one of the least horrible things going on at that moment in time.

When I am about to drop the hammer I stop to think... why am I doing this?  Did they frag up or am I just feeling moral outrage, or annoyance?  And I am not even saying punishing them for it is incorrect, just that it can be unfair and not fun.  NOTE: I did not think what the initial poster did was unfair, it was pretty even handed compared to what I have seen, but not needed.  As someone brought up it is sometimes better to pass along instead of rewarding the offender with extra attention.   

The other common issue I take, not that any of you have demonstrated this, with corrective action is unreasonable response.  First off can the victim gather resources to fight this because, lets face it, even today it is mostly a dog eat dog world.  "Justice" doesn't just happen because people feel a moral obligation, especially in places like Lagos and the Barrens. Justice happens when a bigger fish wants to make a point, or the guy was a local hero and theres a community sense of outrage, or the guy can afford it, or he has dirt on someone who can make it happen.  Not often just for some street kid who is a known thief. Even then do you want to take a moral position against a chrome monster with magical backup or will you pick the next regular guy that makes a similar mistake?  This guy chokes children or decapitates guys in unarmed brawls.  You wanna mess with that guy?  That guy is going to kill you if you lose.  Not beat you, not get your point, not learn a lesson, he is going to fragging kill you if you attack him.

When there is reason (the guy was actually an undercover Star agent who had his headware recovered before scavengers got there) to give response, bye all means it should be done.  But be fair to the players always, you rely on them in your social contract as a GM to player to set up a situation where both parties are supposed to be having a good time.  If a player or GM doesn't like whats going on he has the responsibility to talk to the players about it and let them know he isn't comfortable with that kind of play, same goes for the players.  No player likes the scenario where that random dude you offed was actually a (Fed, Member of powerful corp X, Cop, Yak, etc.) just to punish you for being a dick. Of course if it was that way all along it is a different story.

<Off the devil's soap box>

Specifically about the Nazi gangers.  Well assuming the gang has any real size or resources they can keep their ears to the ground trying to figure out where the players hang out.  They can plan on hurting them or killing them or whatever in between.  If they aren't powerful enough to cause the players a real problem you could have them use what resources they have to cause some minor problems, like breaking into their hideout or houses and smashing or stealing equipment, if they can find out that information.  They had their reps trashed in a very public way and I think it is very justified that they try to get revenge.  But if it would mean the crazy and obviously powerful runners would hunt them down in the end and kill them off, they might have to go for a more subtle revenge, that is if they are rational...neo-nazis... right.  Maybe they track the PCs down and just bum rush them with a little support from the local chapter of the KKK. 

And maybe they just take their beating, look a little for the PCs, but don't waste the rest of their lives trying to find them and move on to other things.  After all life in the sprawl is rough, short and brutal.  Not everyone can spend every waking moment hunting for some guys that jumped them during a bar fight.  Some people have more important things to do, like try to survive. 

Just my humble opinion

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Sentinemodo

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« Reply #24 on: <06-11-11/1505:23> »
Second that.

The point of game isn't to make it a morally enlightening experience. You can make it so if you play with children, but not when you're gaming with your chummers.

The point of a game is to have fun. If a player or GM isn't having it, it is a GM's fault.
Sorry for a small delay ;)

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nojosecool

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« Reply #25 on: <06-12-11/0209:55> »
Thanks for the response, Doc.   You bring up a lot of good points!  I think there is some clarifying in my motives and the background story leading up to my original post.  I appreciate your saying that my action was fair, but I aim to show that it was also necessary.

I want to clarify that I was not trying to enforce any kind of moral code or punish out of annoyance.  The hammer came down because that guy was treating our gaming sessions as his personal venting sandbox where he would crap on all NPC's he encountered and expect to get away with it.  When I had him beaten and ransomed, other players told me I did the right thing because he had been goading the GM for at least 3 sessions.  Believe me, choking an 8 year old kid in the middle of a market, then squatting in a shaman's home was the tip of the iceberg.  Also, I know the point you were getting at with the "helper kid", but I don't think there would be an air of indifference in a crowded African market where a foreigner (a white foreigner) is choking a local child in the open, no matter what the kid is suspected of.  Plus, all that the locals tried to do there was say "hey, you should knock that off," (and someone recorded the thing) and the headbutts started flying.  Again, that was only a small part of the goading.

I understand that in Shadowrun, PC's generally pursue selfish ends with horrible horrible means.  This is what it is to be a bad guy, it makes for good roleplaying and a jolly good time, and it's integral with the whole cyberpunk setting.  I don't disagree with you there.  I think there is some confusion, however, between how a GM should treat a morally bankrupt character, and how a GM should treat a belligerent sociopath.  Behavior such as, (metaphorically) pissing on almost all NPC's, starting fights and killing people in public places, choking children, etc. would cause serious problems in the real world, so I believe that NPC's retaliating to "check" the PCs when they start acting as though they are invincible and above consequences is not only reasonable, but necessary.  Not doing so enables such actions from the PC, and makes for an unrealistic and obnoxious gaming session.  Also, it leads to more goading later.

I guess the main point is that I'm seeing a big difference between a player playing a belligerent jackass, and a player playing an evil man.  Calling down the thunder for the pure jackassery is not the same thing as calling down the thunder because a player is behaving immorally, and I was doing the former and not the latter.  I believe the jackassery calls the thunder upon itself, and saying that the GM would be wrong in making NPCs retaliate appropriately effectively takes the GM out of the game.  (I'm not saying that you said any such thing, I'm just trying to justify my actions)  Similarly (as you were saying), a GM reaching out to enforce his/her idea of the good takes the players out of the story by railroading them too harshly.  I don't think you were saying otherwise, I just think it was a miscommunication about what I did and why, which is why I wanted to clarify.

I do understand that there is a fine line to walk, though.  You don't want to go overboard and outright punish your players.  The bottom line is that we are all getting together to have a good time.  For example, I'm not sure I'd go with the undercover KE car in the club parking lot.  That seems excessive, like we're stretching realistic possibilities to punish the players.  (I mean, what are the chances, right?)  I think this last paragraph was at the core of the point you were trying to make, am I right?

Then again, some players treat Shadowrun like Grand Theft Auto, right down to beating grannies with a baseball bat.  That kind of stuff should be dealt with appropriately, and a GM should feel no remorse at ending such sessions with a TPK.

Maybe my new signature line will be "This is not Grand Theft Auto, this is Shadowrun."  Yep, it's decided.
This is not Grand Theft Auto, this is Shadowrun.

Blond Goth Girl

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« Reply #26 on: <06-12-11/0713:15> »
The hammer came down because that guy was treating our gaming sessions as his personal venting sandbox where he would crap on all NPC's he encountered and expect to get away with it. 

Indeed - I have had that happen as well.  It's generally because someone is at a bad spot in their life and they're venting OR they are just an arse.  Either way deal with it honestly.  The arse for me was a friend in a spot who took an enforced break from the game but we would go for coffee and chat about it.

If it is a bad spot in their life, maybe they can take a break and come back later.  You can be their friend to talk to at their coffee shop but you are not their in game therapist - Unless the PC is paying the group $100 per hour per game session to be split between the GM and other players.  In that case - game therapist yay!

If they are an arse, I wouldn't tolerate them.  Regardless of GM'ing or not, when someone is in my home, I am the hostess.  As hostess, I provide comfort to my guests through a home cooked meal (southern style - chicken and dumplings are the fave), comfortable seating for everyone along with a pleasant environment.  If one guest is rude to the other(s), me, my pets or my home, the offending party is removed.  That is my duty as hostess and I call it manners.       

Anyhow, that is the opinion of someone who looks at GM'ing as part hosting.

nojosecool

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« Reply #27 on: <06-12-11/0930:21> »
I absolutely agree with you GothGirl.  If it was that bad, I would throw the person out too. It was right on the border, though...  OOC he was polite, but his character was insufferable.  However, that dealing with a character in real life has a possibility to cause more problems than it fixes.  I have no problem separating the character from the player, and I'm afraid that enforcing a game break would have escalated my situation beyond my control.  That would have been the next step, but I don't think we were quite there yet. 

I only met this guy through shadowrun about a year ago, and we don't see each other for anything else.  Forcing a game-break might have caused his friend to walk, too.  It's possible that a real-life intervention would have led to us not seeing him again, and a game break would have definitely brought our current adventure to a pause since we couldn't carry on without him.  There's a lot of times when an OOC intervention causes undue awkwardness.  Just reminding PC's that the NPC's can and WILL stand up for themselves from time to time (and it will hurt when they do) is occasionally the better choice.  It's hard enough finding shadowrun players in Milwaukee (let alone good ones who know the rules), so I chose the NPC retaliation in favor of a sit-down and chat.  Really though, it worked.  It's hard to argue with success!

This dude really is a nice guy.  Once he realized that he had hijacked the adventure for about 90 minutes, and that nobody was amused, he felt bad.  He went over his priorities in his head and started acting more cooperatively.  Since then, he's been awesome to game with.  His character is still a jerk, but he keeps it in context and is only a jerk when it's not likely to get the group a good ass-kicking.  Although, he is still a jerk when it's not necessarily in the group's best interest!   :P  But that's just good roleplaying!

Thanks for the input GothGirl.  It's always a pleasure!
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Denver Doc

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« Reply #28 on: <06-12-11/1317:25> »
Just like any relationship, communication and honesty are key, as BGG said.  When a character is being an problem my character talks to them to let them know there is a problem.  If that doesn't work I talk to them player to player.  After all generally these people are my friends.  When I am on the other side of the GM screen I wait to see if the players take action.  Funny thing is most time the players don't even consider it an option that they could ask the offending character to take a hike or even say something constructive to the other player about it.  If nothing comes from the PC side I simply talk to the problem player.  If they continues to be a problem I let them see the consequences of their actions.  They inevitably do something  that will draw down some real problems.  I try to be as fair as possible, but most of us are only metahuman. 



 
 

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Cass100199

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« Reply #29 on: <06-19-11/1629:51> »
Simple fix: Don't let players play evil or sociopath characters. I've been playing RPG's for a long time and I reached a point where I tell my players: You can be a dick, you can be a jerk, you can be an amoral hedonist...I don't care, but in the end you are the good guys. You may be anti-hero vigilantes, but in the end you're the good guys. I know that this is supposed to be a sandbox world, but at the same time we're telling stories. We're creating fantasy. Good fantasy has a lot of gray area, sure, but in the end you still have the good guys and the bad guys.
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