[Fabe]

Does a control rig add its rating to a vehicles speed and handling as stated on page 425 or does it only increase the limit for hits as stated on page 266? Apparently the germen rule book say it only grants a limit bonus so I'm woundering if how its laid out in the English rules is a un-errated error.

[Marcus Gideon]

Core pg 266, Rigging and Limits

When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger.

Speed and Handling aren't part of dice pools anyway. They're just used as the Limit for other rolls. So when you roll Reaction 6 + Pilot Ground 6 with Handling 3 means that out of those 12 dice you can only count 3 successes towards the drive check. But you're using a Rating 1 Rig so the Handling goes up to 4. Now you can count 4 successes.

Core pg 452, Control Rig

When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in.

Here they're actually detailing 3 separate effects.

1) Add the Rating to Vehicle skill dice pools. That means any Pilot Craft checks, and also any Gunnery checks. So now that check from before is Reaction 6 + Pilot Craft 6 + Rig 1 = 13 dice.

2) It repeats what we knew already, that the Rating is added to the Limiting factors. So again, where your vehicle has Handling 3, the Rating 1 Rig brings it up to 4.

3) And the Rating is used to reduce the Threshold for Vehicle Tests. Meaning when the chart on Core pg 199 says that a hairpin turn has a Threshold of 3 (you need to roll at least 3 hits to succeed), your Rating 1 Rig brings it down to 2.

So... you're rolling Reaction 6 + Pilot Craft 6 + Rig 1 [Handling 3+1=4] hoping to roll at least (3-1=2) hits to succeed at the maneuver.

[Rooks]

page 452

When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig
provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle
skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is
added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are
jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test
thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig
(to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in.

+x dice pool bonus +x speed +x handling where x is the rating of the control rig

[Haywire]

Core pg 266, Rigging and Limits

When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger.

Speed and Handling aren't part of dice pools anyway. They're just used as the Limit for other rolls. So when you roll Agility 6 + Pilot Ground 6 with Handling 3 means that out of those 12 dice you can only count 3 successes towards the drive check. But you're using a Rating 1 Rig so the Handling goes up to 4. Now you can count 4 successes.

Core pg 452, Control Rig

When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in.

Here they're actually detailing 3 separate effects.

1) Add the Rating to Vehicle skill dice pools. That means any Pilot Craft checks, and also any Gunnery checks. So now that check from before is Agility 6 + Pilot Craft 6 + Rig 1 = 13 dice.

2) It repeats what we knew already, that the Rating is added to the Limiting factors. So again, where your vehicle has Handling 3, the Rating 1 Rig brings it up to 4.

3) And the Rating is used to reduce the Threshold for Vehicle Tests. Meaning when the chart on Core pg 199 says that a hairpin turn has a Threshold of 3 (you need to roll at least 3 hits to succeed), your Rating 1 Rig brings it down to 2.

So... you're rolling Agility 6 + Pilot Craft 6 + Rig 1 [Handling 3+1=4] hoping to roll at least (3-1=2) hits to succeed at the maneuver.

Little precisation: Pilot skills pair with Reaction, not Agility.

[Marcus Gideon]

(>.>)

(<.<)

Yeah, that's what I said =)

d(^.^)b

Seriously though, the Control Rig is a prime example of what's wrong with these rules and these writers. There is an entire section devoted to Riggers, and yet it's not until you read the Gear entry for the Rig itself that you find out there are more bonuses. And then when it comes down to trading paint or shooting bullets, you have to use your best judgement whether to go with Vehicular combat rules in some instances, or Personal combat rules in others.

[Rooks]

Or is it even reaction at all when jumped in? 

When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re
in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat
Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so
any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle
actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control
Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.

So if I am jumped in Im using matrix actions so would it be intuition instead of reaction to pilot drones/vehicles?

[Soahl]

So if I am jumped in Im using matrix actions so would it be intuition instead of reaction to pilot drones/vehicles?

There's another Thread somewhere discussing whether Pilot checks use Logic, Intuition, or Reaction when Jumped In. I'm of the mind that it's either Logic or Intuition (likely Intuition since that seems to be the Mental equivolent of Reaction, Logic being the Mental Agility, or maybe Strength. An argument could be made for either.) given that in the Matrix you substitute Physical Attributes for Mental given your lack of meat.

Reaction + Pilot comes into play when you're manually controlling a vehicle. This is where I think the rules get confusing and people tend to mix things up, since it's an action you can do either Physically or Mentally.

[Fabe]

 I say while jumped in you still use reaction+skill  while controlling a vehicle since thanks to  the control rig the vehicle is now pretty much your body and you control it using the same automatic reflexes, you don't think about moving you arm,you just do it.  while if just using hot sim VR you have to actually think/visualize  what you want the vehicle/device to do.

[Rooks]

 I say while jumped in you still use reaction+skill  while controlling a vehicle since thanks to  the control rig the vehicle is now pretty much your body and you control it using the same automatic reflexes, you don't think about moving you arm,you just do it.  while if just using hot sim VR you have to actually think/visualize  what you want the vehicle/device to do.

So gunnery is agi when jumped in or agility?

[Haywire]

Should be logic since it's a remote operation. Agility is for manual operations.

[gradivus]

And to make it clear... as far as SPD is concerned Control Rig adds to SPD as a Limit not to the actual SPD of the vehicle itself... 

[Fabe]

And to make it clear... as far as SPD is concerned Control Rig adds to SPD as a Limit not to the actual SPD of the vehicle itself...

 But game mechanics wise won't increasing the limit be the same as increasing  the attribute it self?   The bull dog step van has a speed of 3 so under normal circumstances that most I can count on a speed test is three hits but once I add in lets say a rating 3 control rig I can now count 6 hits. woun't that now be the same as if the van had a speed of 6 meaning it now has a fair chance of out running a un-rigged speed 5 vehicle ? Or do the new rigger  5.0 rules prevent that sort of thing

[gradivus]

It's not functionally the same.

If you change the SPD as an attribute the vehicle moves faster out of vehicle combat.

A character in normal combat with the right augmentation might outrun a Drone with SPD 3 (40m/turn). If you add that control rig 3 as actual SPD increase, the drone is going 320m/turn, and now outpaces the character.

Also Ram damage calculations are based on SPD as an attribute.

There's probably other things, but this is what pops up into my mind at the moment.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Speed as an attribute is used to calculate the actual walking and running rate of drones and vehicles.
Speed as a limit is used to cap the number of hits you can get in a Speed Environment Chase Combat.

Allowing the Control Rig to affect the former allows a vehicle to potentially dramatically increase it's top speed.
Allowing the Control Rig to affect the latter allows a rigger to push his vehicle or drone to the limits without magically making the vehicle or drone move dramatically faster.

[Adamo1618]

Should be logic since it's a remote operation. Agility is for manual operations.

You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

Apparently not