[Haywire]

Should be logic since it's a remote operation. Agility is for manual operations.

You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

Apparently not

AFB now, but in the description of the skill says that manual operations is Gunnery + Agility, and remote operation is Gunnery + Logic. The part you quoted is Control Device, wich indeed is a manual operation.

[Marcus Gideon]

Should be logic since it's a remote operation. Agility is for manual operations.

You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

Apparently not

AFB now, but in the description of the skill says that manual operations is Gunnery + Agility, and remote operation is Gunnery + Logic. The part you quoted is Control Device, wich indeed is a manual operation.

Except it isn't, which has always bugged me about the mixed up wordings throughout the book.

Control Device says you're using your Commlink like a video game controller. Sure, you may be manually operating that if you wanted, but with DNI why bother? What you're really doing is remotely operating the device on the other end, whether that's driving a car or shooting a turret mounted weapon. Whatever it is out there, it's being REMOTELY operated, which means you should be using Logic.

As far as I'm concerned, anything a Decker or Rigger does should be using the REMOTE references whenever possible. Gunnery + Agility is only for the guy strapped to the side of the helicopter holding the machine gun in his hands. The Rigger who is resting comfortably in the backseat of his armored van, using Virtual Reality to operate the gun, is clearly doing so REMOTELY. =)

[gradivus]

You do have to take into account that some deckers are built for AR manual operation..as they can get a higher initiative in AR then in VR- albeit giving up the +2DP modifier for hot sim. This type of decking would definitely still be using gunnery+agility.

But I agree that DNI AR and all VR should be considered using Gunnery + LOG.

One of the Dev in one thread stated the actual use of Piloting Skill in VR still uses REA and not INT or LOG as some argue . Can't remember which Dev but Kincaid agreed with him. Personally, I would prefer that anytime your 'out of body' the astral physical to mental stat conversion should be used- but that does not seem to be RAI.

[Marcus Gideon]

Except they're still operating that distant device remotely. The only way Agility should factor in, is physically having the weapon in hand. Anything else is remote operation, which uses mental stats. Which is why the uber elite COD players are oh so awesome in the video game, but would never cut it if they were actually tossed out in the bush with some real Army Rangers or Navy SEALs.

AR hacking means you get your real world Initiative, which could benefit from Wired Reflexes and the like. And it means you can fire off a couple rounds, and hack the door, basically at the same time. None of your teammates need to lug you around like a sack of potatoes while you play video games in your head. =)

[gradivus]

AR can be done manually...all you need is a commlink and an image link in your glasses... so when you deck this way you're still playing video games with your manual dexterity just like in 2015

[Fabe]

Should be logic since it's a remote operation. Agility is for manual operations.

You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

Apparently not

AFB now, but in the description of the skill says that manual operations is Gunnery + Agility, and remote operation is Gunnery + Logic. The part you quoted is Control Device, wich indeed is a manual operation.

Should there really be a difference between remotely operating a turret using  the controls inside the vehicle and using a comlink to control the same mount?  I mean how diffrent will the two set ups be?

[Marcus Gideon]

Here is an example of using a Commlink to remotely control a device.

And here is an example of operating a weapon yourself, with controls actually in hand.

Notice a difference?

[Fabe]

Here is an example of using a Commlink to remotely control a device.

And here is an example of operating a weapon yourself, with controls actually in hand.

Notice a difference?

 not enough of a difference to see why one would use logic and the other agility

[Marcus Gideon]

Here is an example of using a Commlink to remotely control a device.

And here is an example of operating a weapon yourself, with controls actually in hand.

Notice a difference?

 not enough of a difference to see why one would use logic and the other agility

Because one is a video game, and the other is real life.

[KarmaInferno]

Using your muscles = physical stat

Using your brain (like with trodes or DNI) = mental stat.

Even if you're using a controller, you're using muscles, not pure brainpower.


-k

[brasso]

Once again the rules are too vague to get a clear ruling on this, imho.

Regarding the original post re control rig bonuses, I've attached my rigging cheat sheet, which just references the RAW. It's not necessarily "right" or "wrong", it's just what I've managed to gather from the rules (and various threads) so far.

Regarding the agility vs logic debate, it's too vague to say (my cheat sheet says agility, but that's subject to change). However, it seems that reaction is used for jumped in piloting of a vehicle, which is a physical stat, so I would guess this is an argument to use agility, but not a particularly strong one.

[Tinkerbell]

LOG or AGI
I think we can all agree that RAW don't answer this, right?

I think both stats can be valid - so why dont just take the higher one?
It's a game and it should be fun.

When you compare it to video games it's not only how quick you are with your fingers (agility) but also about logic: understanding the game mechanics, predicting ememy players movement, keeping the track of all what is happening on the screen, and so on,

Manual
Agility - you have your hands e g the gun and the trigger.

AR
I imagine fireing mounted weapons from AR like using some kind of virtual touchscreen. Now you can argue which part is more important: choosing the right target spot to fire (logic) or tapping on the right spot of the touchscreen (agility) - in this case it would be more intelligence in my opinion. There could also be a kind of playstation-controller you can use - which would it make a little bit more agility in my opinion.
Both can have valid arguments - so there is no reason to restrict one - just use the higher one and everyone is happy.

VR
Intelligence - because you dont use your physical body at all.

Jumped in
For me it would be more logic, because your are in VR and you are fireing the mounted weapons remotely. (Remote = you dont put your physical finger on the trigger)
Again you could argue - but this would be stupid, because you dont know how it is to rigged in. So again: choose the stat you are more comfortable with.
I guess every vehicle or rigger has his own personalized "jumped in feeling". So maybe in one vehicle it feels like the gun is a kind of limb you can move with agility, maybe in others it feels more like you fire by will (just looking at the target, focusing it and giving a mental command to fire) - we dont know this.

[Adamo1618]

Using your muscles = physical stat

Using your brain (like with trodes or DNI) = mental stat.

Even if you're using a controller, you're using muscles, not pure brainpower.

Agreed. I'd say Intuition is more suitable than Logic, however.

[Haywire]

Using your muscles = physical stat

Using your brain (like with trodes or DNI) = mental stat.

Even if you're using a controller, you're using muscles, not pure brainpower.

Agreed. I'd say Intuition is more suitable than Logic, however.

The rules say otherwise.

[DigitalZombie]

Agreed. I'd say Intuition is more suitable than Logic, however.

The rules say otherwise.

Well, just to make the confusion complete. But when sneaking with a vehicle/drone agility is replaced by intuition when you are jumped in. (page 270)

I suppose those who are in the "Logic> agility boat" also would rule that logic is used when slicing people up with the duelist drone or palming the keys of the sleeping guard with a mini drone?

What would you roll if you wanted to use "sneaking" with a vehicle/drone?