[Senko]

I may be missing this but my character design would be starting with a rating 3 Fake Sin and 5 rating 3 Fake Licences. Now if I want to buy a new one that's easy enough make contact, pay money, wait, get new fake sin. What I'm wondering is are there any rules about ugprading existing ones. Lets say I like my fake idenity and just want to make it more "real" so I want to change it from a rating 3 fake SIN to a rating 6 one and add 2 new licenses to represent a new combat spell and a car license. How would you handle it pay the differnence, pay again for upgrade, pay again for new or something else?

Pay the difference = There's already data out there its just being upgraded and made more solid in which case you just pay the difference between what you have and what you want e.g. 3 - 6 = 7,500 nuyen (15,000 - 7,500).

Pay for upgrade = The data's already there but because its being expanded and inserted into new databases the risks are the same so while the SIN remains the same but becomes more solid (same id but better dna/picture etc) you have to pay the full price for your new id. You still only have 1 SIN saying your Tom Harris of Bloomington Illonois but its now a rating 6 identity not a rating 3 one.

Pay for new = They're creating a whole new identity for new so you have to pay full price for your new SIN as above however the difference is the ID number. So what you have here is two SINs for Tom Harris of Bloominton Illonois one a rating 3 one of XXX-223 and one a rating six one of XXX-441. Same personal tastes, address etc (for running a "legitimate business) but different ID and different back up data.

Something else = I missed a rule again or you have a different/better way to handle it.

Right now I'm leaning towards option 2 the risks are associated with creating the back up data so you have to pay full price but they can take your existing fake number and alter the data it links to and edit it so you go from being Tom Harris of Bloomington Illonois with no background info and the DNA of a chicken to Tom Harris of Bloominton Illonois who was a solid if not outstanding student at the local magical accademy and has matching DNA (or close to what your after).

EDIT
Example

Start game with R3 fake SIN with 5 licenses (magic, gun bike, 2 combat spells)
After a few paydays pay for a second fake SIN R2 with 2 licenses R2 (magic, gun) as an the job can be burnt fake ID.
After a few more paydays pay for a third fake SIN R6 with 2 licenses R6 (Magic, gun) as secure fall back identity to go with bolt hole.
After even more paydays pay for a fourth/upgrade on first? fake SIN R6 with 7 fake R6 licenses (magic, gun, bike, car, 3 combat spells) however this has the same name, address etc as the intiial one its just now more solid for day to day living as a "magical consultant".

[Namikaze]

There are no rules for this.  But, it'd be easy to house rule.  For instance, I let my players upgrade their 'ware by paying thevdifference in price + 10%.

[Senko]

Good to know I haven't missed something. The thing is I can see an argument both ways. For paying the difference they've already set up the ID, records etc they're just upgrading them and adding some new supporting data so you only pay the price for those extras. For paying full price adding this stuff is more dangerous than just creating a fake ID as they're hacking into secure databases and aquiring biological samples to link to it.

[BigGB]

I don't think it should cost anything. If you look at the differences in page 367 it's basically adding more fake information to your fake sin. I would think its extended forgery test with its difficulty threshold being connected to its rating. But I didn't see any rules set up for it either.

 The initial cost for the sin basically has to deal with the amount of time and effort being placed about the information that's placed on the sin. The description of a fake sin is on page 368.

[Senko]

My mage doesnt have the contacts, skills to upgrade/make a sin and I doubt they'd be improved frkm 3 to 6 for free. So far however I'm starting to think just paying the differenfe would do.

[Michael Chandra]

I don't think it should cost anything. If you look at the differences in page 367 it's basically adding more fake information to your fake sin. I would think its extended forgery test with its difficulty threshold being connected to its rating. But I didn't see any rules set up for it either.

 The initial cost for the sin basically has to deal with the amount of time and effort being placed about the information that's placed on the sin. The description of a fake sin is on page 368.

That's because Fake SINs are far outside the reach of normal forging, it requires very advanced techniques and loopholes.

You cannot upgrade fake SINs. The only ones that might be able to are the ones that made it in the first place.

[Senko]

They're the ones I'm talking about, I'm just not sure if I'm upgrading from a 3 to a 6 I'd have to pay them the full price for a new R6 SIN even though I don't want a new one just my existing one made more solid (meaning I already have the number, entries in the various databases I just need the information in those entries changed) or just the difference between my existing R3 SIN and the new R6 one.

[Michael Chandra]

"So this guy had a gender change, a hair colour change, eye colour change, his metatype changed, his length changed, his weight changed, what the heck?" "Hey, surgery does miracles." "Yes, but his AGE?! He went from 8 to 23 in a month!"

[Senko]

Who's going to notice though?

[SlowDeck]

"So this guy had a gender change, a hair colour change, eye colour change, his metatype changed, his length changed, his weight changed, what the heck?" "Hey, surgery does miracles." "Yes, but his AGE?! He went from 8 to 23 in a month!"

"In my defense, I was born an ork." 

[Kincaid]

Who's going to notice though?

A system that revolves around redundancy and matching data points.  Like...a wireless matrix, for example.

[RHat]

I don't think it should cost anything. If you look at the differences in page 367 it's basically adding more fake information to your fake sin. I would think its extended forgery test with its difficulty threshold being connected to its rating. But I didn't see any rules set up for it either.

 The initial cost for the sin basically has to deal with the amount of time and effort being placed about the information that's placed on the sin. The description of a fake sin is on page 368.

SR4 had rules for forging your own SIN.  They were far, far, far, far more complicated and difficult than that.

The forgery is just the first step, and probably about the easiest part.

[BobTheTroll]

If he was starting with a R1 SIN, I would agree, but since he said he started with a R3, why wouldn't he be able to add the biometric data to the database?  The data is already in the right ballpark at R3. 

[RHat]

If he was starting with a R1 SIN, I would agree, but since he said he started with a R3, why wouldn't he be able to add the biometric data to the database?  The data is already in the right ballpark at R3. 

For one?  He doesn't have access, and getting access would absolutely require a kind of hacking we don't have rules for (the DeepRuns which are promised for Data Trails).

Plus, you're using the singular of database.   This is incorrect.  We're talking about several ludicrously secure systems, and the data would necessarily need to be planted simultaneously in all of them.

[Kincaid]

The money spent on fake SINs isn't spent on hiring a decker to break into government archives, it's used to bribe corporate/government wageslaves to input the info directly from their terminals.