[Senko]

As I said I'm not trying to do this myself I'm paying a contact. What I'm wondering is have I . . .

1) Already paid for a lot of data in the databases R3 SIN and now just need to pay to bribe the more detailed ones i.e. pay the difference to get to R6.

2) Already paid for a lot of data in the databases R3 SIN and now need to pay them all again to update it i.e pay the full amount to get to R6?

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the rules imply number 2 is the only way to do it.

[Senko]

Even if your just improving it and already have an entry in the database ?

[SlowDeck]

Based on what I read of the fluff of them? Yep. That's actually how SINs are supposed to work anyway.

Consider what it says about SINs tracking everything and accumulating data about you. Even fake SINs. This gives the hint that, given a long enough amount of time and constant use, a fake SIN may accumulate enough data to naturally upgrade their quality (long enough that the only practical campaign capable of this probably would run more game time years than has passed since First Edition came out; thus, no need for mechanics to support it). However, adding more files into the registry attached to a SIN? That's probably something they don't watch for much due to the simple fact that's supposed to happen.

[Senko]

So what happens if I happen to like idenitty X and now I have the funds want to improve it rather than create a new one?

[RHat]

So what happens if I happen to like idenitty X and now I have the funds want to improve it rather than create a new one?

For one thing?  Any attempt to do so would at very least risk that identity, if not out-and-out compromise it immediately.

Part of the thing to understand about SINs is that they don't just exist in one registry - they exist in many, and partial data exists in many, many more.  The verification process for them is a "web of trust" verification per SR4's Unwired - that is, SINs are verified by comparing the information in one location to the information in many, many, many others.  If, all of a sudden, you add new information to a SIN, you risk creating inconsistencies between these varying entries (especially since you almost certainly don't even know of all or most of them).  The moment those inconsistencies are there, you can consider the identity burned.

If you like the identity, simply avoid doing things that put it at risk - for example, if you're running a business through it, you might use another identity as a cut-out for dealings where the SIN would be more closely analyzed.

[Senko]

It jist seems to me if they can build an entire bulletproof R6 from the ground up they could improve the data of a lower level one to make it better.

So basically I take this to mean dont make a life till you have an R6 SIN.

[Michael Chandra]

Well you'd simply keep your Rating 3 SIN around, and perhaps pay a decker to fake a data trail for it every now and then, and use it for less-crucial things that you don't want tied to your really expensive fake SIN.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I allow for improvements on a fake SIN; it is, essentially, no riskier to the people doing it than one of the desired rating, and is slightly easier on them.  The character runs the risk of the SIN getting burned, but hey.  I'd take the guideline of (Difference + 10%) for both the time and cost, and the SIN is unusable while it's being upgraded.

[Whiskeyjack]

So what happens if I happen to like idenitty X and now I have the funds want to improve it rather than create a new one?

Ask for your new Fake SIN to have the same identity and biometrics as your existing one?

I mean in the end the process for getting a Fake SIN is an abstraction. The player picks the identity of the Fake SIN. If you get a new one, it stands to reason you still get to determine the details as an OOC measure. If those details are the same as an existing Fake SIN, I'd say that's fine but you probably want to ditch the Rating 3 since it's not going to do any good as a backup, and may have the same identifying info as the R6.

[Tarislar]

Hmm.

Given what goes into creating a good fake "life" with all the background documents, I don't buy "paying" for an upgrade,  but I do like the idea above about the SIN getting "better" over time.  But I'd see it as like 1 upgrade rating every 5-10 years of usage.

I say just buy a new ID at higher rating & keep the old one, you can never have to many fakes.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I suppose I can see your point, but understand that it's a matter of development anyhow.  The amount of data that has to be developed for a Rating 4 SIN includes the amount of data that has to be developed for a Rating 3 SIN.  Increasing a L3 to an L4 starts from the established L3, instead of starting from scratch, is all.

[Xenon]

You should never keep a fake SIN too long.
Just like a real SIN, anytime you use a fake SIN for legitimate activity, you leave a datatrail in your wake. The fact that criminal activities can be tracked to fake SINs makes fake SINs inherently disposable.


I also don't see a point in upgrading/reusing a rating 1 SIN where the actual security identification number might not even have the correct checksum digits and the digits that points out your sex, age and nationality are all random and wrong as well.

A rating 3 fake SIN is good when it comes to the actual number being correct enough. Above rating 3 you mostly add evidence to make the SIN more secure. I would let a player upgrade an existing rating 3 SIN or higher, keep the availability code of the new fake SIN but reduce the price a bit depending on the rating of your existing SIN. But I would also advice my player to keep his old fake SIN and get a brand new fake SIN instead.

The player picks the identity of the Fake SIN.

Only on higher rating fake SINs.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You should never keep a fake SIN too long.

Just like a real SIN, anytime you use a fake SIN for legitimate activity, you leave a datatrail in your wake. The fact that criminal activities can be tracked to fake SINs makes fake SINs inherently disposable.

If, as a player, I played a character who was an upper-end pro, I always kept as high-end a fake SIN as I could, upgrading whenever possible, for my 'cover' identity - to apply to where I actually lived (not my safehouses), my 'legal' cover job (courier or whatever), send the daughter to school, so on and so forth.  I kept at least one 'good to very good' fake SIN specifically in my BOB, along with any necessary for any dependents I might have.  Then two or three 'burner' SINs, to use for two or three 'runs and dump.  Or, to continue the quote from above:

Most runners operate two or more fake SINs at a time, one for legal activity like paying rent and going shopping, another for shadier activity, and possibly a third to be used only when it’s time to get the hell outta Dodge.

The problem, of course, is the cost - fake SINs are frickin' expensive, and not something you can really just buy and burn for one run.

[Tarislar]

I suppose I can see your point, but understand that it's a matter of development anyhow.  The amount of data that has to be developed for a Rating 4 SIN includes the amount of data that has to be developed for a Rating 3 SIN.  Increasing a L3 to an L4 starts from the established L3, instead of starting from scratch, is all. 

Not necessarily.
IIRC, some of what goes into creating a fake is also not just electronic data but also actual time, properly aged physical documents.
Like having a Birth Certificate that is from someone the same age as you "roughly".
Then having an actual drivers license that is 16 years younger than the birth certificate, and copies of it on file at several different DMVs.
Not just electronic data, or forgeries, that is the lower end stuff, but the really good id's were not created on the fly but were "grown" over the years.
So your "ID-Maker" also had his Niece go in & get that drivers license using that birth certificate from a baby that died shortly after being born.
Then the ID-Maker faithfully renewing it every 4 years.  Putting in Changes of address for a college town at age 20, etc etc.
To me those are what the L6 id's involve.  Well, at least that is the cool stuff you see watching nifty spy movies & such, etc etc.

In 2070 I can only imagine that it is even more involved.  Having to match a good fake SIN would mean some serious genetic data I would think.
Add in the thought about all the data that is being collected about you by marketing,  IIRC there was a line about RFID sized cameras on soda cans looking for reactions from people as they drink the soda,  or something like that.  I don't want to even think the shear amount of data that is out there to be cross referenced by some corp super computer or really dedicated NSA hacker etc etc.