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[SR5] Burst-Clarification

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th1ef

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« on: <12-05-13/0530:57> »
I kow how Singleshots work and I know how log bursts and auto fire works.
But I am not entierly sure how bursts work.

Do you split your dice pool or do you roll seperate for every bullet, if you shoot at a single target?
And another related question: You cant burst fire at multiple targets, right?

thx

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <12-05-13/0555:03> »
A burst is not a multiple-attack, nor can you hit your opponent multiple times. They simply translate to X recoil, X bullets fired and X-1 defense penalty for the person you're firing on. You keep your full dicepool, unless you can't compensate all the recoil.

So if you fire a simple short burst, that's 3 recoil you have to compensate, you fired 3 bullets and the enemy has 2 dice less on avoiding the attack. With a Complex Full Burst, it's 10 recoil, 10 bullets and -9 dice for the defense test.

-

You can actually burst-fire at multiple attacks, but the explanation on how this works is missing and we need to wait for errata on it.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

th1ef

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« Reply #2 on: <12-05-13/0753:40> »
Thanks for the clarification.

About the damage tho: does the defender get the weapons DV + net-hits or 3 times the DV + net-hits?

Warmachinez

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« Reply #3 on: <12-05-13/0810:02> »
Weapon DV + Net hits, as usual.

Burst fire only affects the ennemies defence pool.
Chaos? Lack of protection? Enemies lurking in the shadows? Sounds
to me like the fun’s just beginning. Sorry you’ll miss it, omae.
> Kane

Shadowik

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« Reply #4 on: <12-05-13/0930:21> »
I have question to this

1 - book says (179):
Firing a weapon in Burst Fire mode is a Simple Action that cannot be combined with any other attack Simple Action in the same Action Phase.

can I take second burst fire in same action or not

2 - long burst
can I shot at 6 targets?
how it will process if i have 2 targets and fire first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target

does this count as "new" shot against target and new roll of dice?

Reaver

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« Reply #5 on: <12-05-13/1109:00> »
I have question to this

1 - book says (179):
Firing a weapon in Burst Fire mode is a Simple Action that cannot be combined with any other attack Simple Action in the same Action Phase.

can I take second burst fire in same action or not

2 - long burst
can I shot at 6 targets?
how it will process if i have 2 targets and fire first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target

does this count as "new" shot against target and new roll of dice?

you have 2 options,

1:
Suppressive fire: a single attack roll that causes all in the area to have to take cover or get hit. (see suppressive fire rules)

2: Take the "multiple attacks" free action, then use a burst, See page 196.

So, yes, you COULD spray 6 people with a long burst, BUT your dice pool is: <Skill>+<attribute>+/-(modifiers)+edge dice / 6

So, you could be rolling a single die for each shot.

each target rolls defense as normal. (modified for burst)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Agonar

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« Reply #6 on: <12-05-13/1111:19> »
I have question to this

1 - book says (179):
Firing a weapon in Burst Fire mode is a Simple Action that cannot be combined with any other attack Simple Action in the same Action Phase.

can I take second burst fire in same action or not
No.  Everyone is limited to one Attack action per phase.

Quote
2 - long burst
can I shot at 6 targets?
how it will process if i have 2 targets and fire first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target

does this count as "new" shot against target and new roll of dice?

Have to run to work (so no page citations), but your skill determines how many targets you can affect, max.  You can split your bullets as evenly as possible amongst all targets, and split your dice pool (after all modifiers) as evenly as possible among all targets.  Look at the sidebar "Not enough Bullets" to determine defense modifiers if your "burst" is short on bullets.

The end effect is, you are using very few dice on each of your targets, your chance of glitching is higher, and if since defense mods are equal to bullets-1, then likely, all of your targets are going to defend with full dice pools.. meaning you probably won't hit.

Edit; got beaten to the punch
« Last Edit: <12-05-13/1113:35> by Agonar »
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Shadowik

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« Reply #7 on: <12-05-13/1135:42> »
you have 2 options,

1:
Suppressive fire: a single attack roll that causes all in the area to have to take cover or get hit. (see suppressive fire rules)

2: Take the "multiple attacks" free action, then use a burst, See page 196.

So, yes, you COULD spray 6 people with a long burst, BUT your dice pool is: <Skill>+<attribute>+/-(modifiers)+edge dice / 6

So, you could be rolling a single die for each shot.

each target rolls defense as normal. (modified for burst)
that was not answer to my 1 question... its about burst not suppressive fire
but nevermind Agonar answer this.
I cant since u call only 1 attack per phase and this would be 2

to 2nd question
I know with how many dice I will roll so this is not debate about dices its theoretical question
you answer to first part I can hit 6 targets but not second
what if I wil change targets between 2 its new roll or not?

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <12-05-13/1141:31> »
Long bust is 2 individual 3 bullet bursts. You aim at one target then you tap the trigger once. Out flies 3 bullets in a time span that is less than 0.2 seconds. Then you aim at the target again or split your pool and aim at a second target and then you tap the trigger for another tight 3 bullet burst.

So I would say no.

(There are also no rules to split full auto on multiple targets except with suppressive fire or dual wielding - which also make perfect sense from a real life perspective).

Shadowik

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« Reply #9 on: <12-05-13/1158:55> »
Long bust is 2 individual 3 bullet bursts. You aim at one target then you tap the trigger once. Out flies 3 bullets in a time span that is less than 0.2 seconds. Then you aim at the target again or split your pool and aim at a second target and then you tap the trigger for another tight 3 bullet burst.

So I would say no.

(There are also no rules to split full auto on multiple targets except with suppressive fire or dual wielding - which also make perfect sense from a real life perspective).
page 179:
Burst Fire weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst.
Long Burst weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst.

so u say that in first you are fast enough to shoot 3 targets in simple action but cannot in second hit 6 targets in 2 simple actions?  ;)

i think that is clear that u can hit 6 targets but question is how u will roll dice if you split ammo like this:
first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target
will u have new role to first target or not
if not why?

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <12-05-13/1250:22> »
No I am saying that to take advantage of multiple attack action to attack multiple targets in one attack action with single shot, semi automatic, burst fire or full auto if you dual wield.

There are a few single wield options to take the multiple attacks free action. They are all well described.

1) semi automatic burst (complex action). Good clear rules how to resolve that. Targets need to be at short or medium range. Remember cumulative recoil when using this fire option.

2) long burst (complex action). Again good and clear rules how to resolve it. Targets need to be at short or medium range. You need to be mindful of cumulative recoil when using this fire mode.

3) full automatic suppressive fire (special action). Good rules how to use full automatic fire to cover a frontal cone area that will hit friends and foe.

There are no rules how to resolve splitting of a 3 bullet burst on multiple targets (do they need to stand close, will you waste bullets between targets, will a smartlink avoid wasting bullets between targets, what will the negative dice pool modifier for the target be, can targets be at long range from the shooter,  etc etc - if you want to introduce splitting of bursts then you will have to house rule everything).

From a real life perspective it also make no sense to split it.

Maybe there are no rules or actions that describe it because you are simply not intended to do it?
« Last Edit: <12-05-13/1258:49> by Xenon »

Shadowik

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« Reply #11 on: <12-05-13/1536:26> »
No I am saying that to take advantage of multiple attack action to attack multiple targets in one attack action with single shot, semi automatic, burst fire or full auto if you dual wield.

There are a few single wield options to take the multiple attacks free action. They are all well described.

1) semi automatic burst (complex action). Good clear rules how to resolve that. Targets need to be at short or medium range. Remember cumulative recoil when using this fire option.

2) long burst (complex action). Again good and clear rules how to resolve it. Targets need to be at short or medium range. You need to be mindful of cumulative recoil when using this fire mode.

3) full automatic suppressive fire (special action). Good rules how to use full automatic fire to cover a frontal cone area that will hit friends and foe.

There are no rules how to resolve splitting of a 3 bullet burst on multiple targets (do they need to stand close, will you waste bullets between targets, will a smartlink avoid wasting bullets between targets, what will the negative dice pool modifier for the target be, can targets be at long range from the shooter,  etc etc - if you want to introduce splitting of bursts then you will have to house rule everything).

From a real life perspective it also make no sense to split it.

Maybe there are no rules or actions that describe it because you are simply not intended to do it?
1 - this is simple action but u cannnot shoot another burst but u can do something else in another action

to other its clear how to use in case of 3 different targets or 6 or as rules sayse (in sigle action combat skill/2 ) so if u have firearms 4 then u can hit only max 4 people in complex action
but there are no rules to hit same person twice or more with even melee or firearms
as rules says now there are no waste of bullets etc but in 2ed SR there was rule that in full auto u waste 1 round for each meter in distance between 2 targets wich can by applied in all multiple targets here
but this would be ofc house rule

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <12-05-13/1749:15> »
1) semi automatic burst (complex action). Good clear rules how to resolve that. Targets need to be at short or medium range. Remember cumulative recoil when using this fire option.
1 - this is simple action but u cannnot shoot another burst but u can do something else in another action
No.
You can use a semi automatic weapon shooting one bullet as a simple action per action phase. This can only be used against one target (or against two targets if you dual wield and take the multiple attack free action). You can also use a semi automatic weapon to shoot 3 bullets as a complex action per action phase by tapping the trigger three times. This can be used against one target but it can also be used against multiple targets if you split the dice pool, the targets are within short or medium range and you take the free action multiple attack. This is the 3 bullet semi automatic burst i am talking about in 1)

Burst Fire weapons can shoot a single 3 bullet burst by tapping the trigger once. This might be the burst you are thinking aobut when you are saying that it is a simple action. a 3 bullet burst can only be used  against one target (or against two targets if you dual wield and take the multiple attack free action). You can use a long burst to shoot 2 individual 3 bullet bursts as a complex action per action phase by tapping the trigger twice. this can be used against one target but it can also be used against multiple targets if you split the dice pool, both targets are within short or medium range and you take the free action multiple attack. This is the 2x3 bullet long burst i am talking about in 2)

to other its clear how to use in case of 3 different targets or 6 or as rules sayse (in sigle action combat skill/2 ) so if u have firearms 4 then u can hit only max 4 people in complex action
You can attack a max number of combat skill / 2 targets. This is a general rule. There might be explict rules or limitations that are tighter than that. Like if you fire a semi automatic burst of 3 bullets you can't hit more than 3 targets even if you have a weapon skill of 7+ ;)

so,
You can only shoot at two targets with a long burst if you have weapon skill of 3 or more.
You can only shoot at three targets with semi automatic burst if you have a weapon skill of 5 or more.
To shoot at two targets with a semi automatic burst you need to have a skill of 3 or more.

Melee does not have such inherit limitation, so with a melee weapon you can take the multiple attack and engage up to weapon skill / 2 (round up) targets as one compelx action by splitting your pool (as long as they all are within range)... but with a melee weapon you often might want to spend that free action on a charge attack instead (and with only one free action you cant both charge and attack multiple targets in the same complex  action).

...and splitting your pool is almost never worth it to begin with (except when your targets are unaware or surprised).

but there are no rules to hit same person twice or more with even melee or firearms
True. But there are for throwing weapons. And it kinda make sense that you can aim two firearms at one target and pull the trigger on both weapons (by RAW you can attack different targets when you dual wield. It is not clear if you even can aim both weapons at one target and pull both triggers in SR5)

as rules says now there are no waste of bullets etc but in 2ed SR there was rule that in full auto u waste 1 round for each meter in distance between 2 targets wich can by applied in all multiple targets here
but this would be ofc house rule
It IS ok to split a semi automatic 3 bullet complex action burst from a SA weapon. It make sense from a real life point of view that you can aim at one target, pull the trigger, aim at a second target, pull the trigger and aim at a third target and pull the trigger. if you are skilled enough. There are also rules that explain how to resolve it and what limitations that are in place.

It might or might not be OK to split a 3 bullet burst from a BF weapon. It does not make sense from a real life point of view to split it (if you have not tried to fire a weapon in 3 bullet burst fire mode in real life - i have - just try it in some random FPS...) and there are no game rules that explain how it is resolved.

It IS ok to spit a long 2x3 bullet complex action burst from a BF weapon. It make sense from a real life point of view that you can aim at one target, pull the trigger to fire a 3 bullet burst, aim at a second target and pull the  trigger again for another 3 bullet burst. If you have enough skill (and recoil compensation). There are also rules that explain how to resolve it and what the limitations are.

It might or might not be OK to split bursts from FA to land individual bullets on individual targets without wasting any bullets between your targets, with avoiding to hit friendly targets and hit targets that are positioned 180 degrees away from each other and at extreme ranges... but from a real life perspective it would be impossible. If you use Full Auto  you either aim your bullets at one general direction or you more or less spray an area within a frontal cone area, risk hitting friends and foe in the area. Very similar to how suppressive fire rules are explained... ;) There are also no rules that explain how to resolve it and what the limitations are (except if you accept that hitting multiple targets with FA = suppressive fire of course, a lot of rules how to resolve and what the limitations are on suppressive fire).


Having said that;
From a RAW point of view it is ok if you want to split a 3 bullet burst from a BF weapon on up to weapon skill / 2 differnt targets. the book is ambigous enough to support it. even if you have more than 7 skill (which allow you to hit 4 targets with 3 bullets). Nothing in the book say that number of targets are limited to number of bullets you fire or number of times you pull the trigger. Just skill / 2...

(...but if you try to argue it at my table i will hit you in the head with something hard ;) )
« Last Edit: <12-05-13/1811:47> by Xenon »

Agonar

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« Reply #13 on: <12-06-13/0134:37> »
It might or might not be OK to split a 3 bullet burst from a BF weapon. It does not make sense from a real life point of view to split it (if you have not tried to fire a weapon in 3 bullet burst fire mode in real life - i have - just try it in some random FPS...) and there are no game rules that explain how it is resolved.

This is not real life though.  Many game situations, and rules, make absolutely no sense, if viewed through the "real life" filter.  Real Life doesn't typically included augmented reflexes, smartguns, cyberlimbs, etc. . . and there are game rules. . .

The game presents all the rules you need in order to split a burst among multiple targets.

p.179 Under each of the Semi-Automatic Burst, Burst Fire, Long Burst,  and Full Auto, it lists . . . "Can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst."

p.180 shows the Firing Mode chart, how many bullets each burst uses, and the Defense Modifier.

p.180 Also has the Not Enough Bullets Sidebar, which explains that for each bullet a listed burst is short by, the Defense penalty is reduced by one.

p. 196 In Multiple Attacks, it explains about the maximum number of attacks you can make in a single phase being limited by Skill/2.  It also explains that you combine all modifiers (range, wounds, recoil, and even bonus Edge dice) Before you split your dice pool as evenly as possible.

This is really all you need.  If you have a skill of 6, and want to split a Long Burst (6 rounds), the most you can split it between is 3 targets.  Use 2 bullets to each target, split your dice pool by 3, and roll each attack separately. 

Are there rules for "walking" your fire?  No.  But there doesn't have to be.  Are the rules stating how far targets can be from eachother?  No, but there doesn't have to be.  The GM can make those determinations.  If the GM wants to dictate that a bullet is lost for every meter you have to skip (like how it was in SR3 p.116), then the GM will say so. 

But note, even in SR3, Smartguns never wasted bullets.  The Smartgun picks up the gap, and that you aren't shooting at anything in that gap, and so the smartgun halts fire until you are back on target again. "When engaging multiple targets in full-auto mode, the attacker must “walk” the fire from one target to the next. This means that one round is wasted for every meter of distance between the two targets. Smartguns never waste rounds"

Why does SR5 not need this rule?  because SR5 handles damage and attack differently.  In SR3, if you had a dice pool of 9 dice, and you tried to split your attack, you would roll 9 dice for the first target with a TN of 4 (just to grab one).  For your second target, you would still roll all 9 of your dice, but now with a TN of 6 (each additional target increased your target number by +2), and you would roll all 9 dice against your third target, but now with a TN of 8.

And the damage mattered based on how many bullets you fired at a target, which is why they recommended firing a burst at each target.  If your weapon did 8M (Moderate Wound, with a TN of 8 to stage down the damage), the power would go up by +1 for every bullet, and the damage level would increase for every 3.  So a 3rnd burst would take that 8M up to 11S (Serious Wound, needing 11's to stage down the damage).  Power went up by +1 per bullet, damage level went up one category for every 3 bullets.  So, they even had rules for bursts without enough bullets then too.

So your penalty in earlier editions from splitting attacks came from losing bullets, and each additional target being harder to hit.  You would almost always hit your primary target, and maybe even your secondary target.  But when you counted lost bullets from "walking" it could mean the difference between harder to resist Serious wounds, to easily resisted Moderate wounds.

SR5 handles damage and attack differently.  Now, you are simply dealing a number of boxes equal to damage code + net hits.  The larger a burst, the less dice they defend with, which in theory means you increase your likelihood of dealing more damage.  By Splitting your bursts, your penalty in SR5 is that you are rolling less dice to attack, and their defense penalty is lower, because you are firing less bullets at them.   With that same dice pool of 9, you are going to be rolling 3d6 against each target, and they are going to be rolling practically their full defense pool..  -1 each for 2 round bursts coming their way. Also, with fewer dice, your chances of a Glitch or Critical Glitch are higher.  So, ultimately, in SR5, Splitting bursts makes you more likely to miss your target.  You don't need to further complicate matters by trying to decide if Target 2 is a little too far from Target 1.  Or if the gap between Target 2 and 3 means you should lose another bullet.  Keep it simple, use common sense, and GM determinations for that.

Of course, Several will say (and have already said) that there aren't enough rules, that there needs to be errata, that it needs to be more complicated.  If you feel this, then by all means, continue waiting.  But when you get down to it, there is enough in the book, and it works just fine in practice.
« Last Edit: <12-06-13/0140:11> by Agonar »
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Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <12-06-13/0246:15> »
There are no rules that explain that if you drop an apple it will fall to the ground.
Don't have to be. Most people will take gravity for granted even without written rules.

It is OK to step back think sometimes...


Scenario
If you have one target standing 20m to your right, one target standing 30m in front of you and a third target standing 190m to your right
- and in between you have friendly targets.

If you have a BF weapon and you tap your trigger once to fire a burst of 3 bullets it would not even be Hollywood realistic to swipe the weapon from left to right during the less than 0.2 seconds it take for the weapon to fire 3 bullets and time it so that each three bullets that automatically leave the barrel of your gun when you tap the trigger once hit bad guys (and does not even risk hitting your friendly targets at all). Even Robocop spend one individual 3 bullet burst per target for crying out loud :) The target at 190m would not be illegal since you don't use the Long Burst complex action - There is no mention about your targets having to be at short or medium range when you take the simple action to fire a burst at p.165 (then again the simple action 3 bullet burst action on p.165 does not even mention taking the multiple attacks action to attack different targets to begin with - unless you dual wield)

Can you find support for it in the rules? Sure. Maybe. Well... the only support for this is a single line on p.179 really (which might or might not be a copy pasta error. might or might not talk about dual wielding). Does that mean any GM out there would allow it? I sure hope not (but i guess some would).


Same scenario.
You aim at one of the targets within short or medium range (lets say the left target), tap the trigger once, out flies 3 bullets in a pretty tight formation. You point the weapon towards the second target within short or medium range (this would be the frontal target), tap the trigger once - and out flies 3 bullets towards this target as well.

Would a GM allow  this? Hell yes. This is very much supported by the Long Burst complex action on p.167
(It is also Hollywood realistic and to some extent real life realistic).

If you didn't try it, please load up your  favorite FPS and grab a burst fire weapon. Then you tap the trigger and try to spin around to accurately land individual bullets on individual targets. It will just not happen. Then you try to tap the trigger once against one target, aim at a second target and tap the trigger again. Very possible to do. Maybe this is why there is no mentioning about taking the multiple attack free action when you only tap the trigger once (p.165 - unless you dual wield) and why they do mention it when they talk about about the long burst action when you tap the trigger twice (p.167).

If you feel this, then by all means, continue waiting. 
I don't feel that I am waiting ;)
If you want to attack multiple targets with a SA weapon there are rules for that right now. p.167
If you want to attack multiple targets with a BF weapon there are rules for that right now. p.167
If you want to attack multiple targets with a FA weapon there are rules for that right now. p.179

SR5 p.167 Fire Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst
A character may fire a readied firearm in Long Burst or Semi-Auto Burst via a Complex Action (see Firearms, p. 424). A character may attack multiple targets within Short or Medium range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196).

SR5 179 Suppressive Fire
...it may appear as a “spray and pray” technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves. A character can suppress a triangular area projecting from the shooting character outward up to a distance of his choosing, up to the maximum range of the weapon, with a width of 10 meters at its end and a height of 2 meters...


If you want to allow splitting an individual simple action 3 bullet burst on multiple targets, go right ahead. p.179 make the book ambiguous enough to allow it by RAW. Just don't try it at my table.