[Shadowik]

If you want to allow splitting an individual simple action 3 bullet burst on multiple targets, go right ahead. p.179 make the book ambiguous enough to allow it by RAW. Just don't try it at my table.

if u say that 1 burts take 0.2s than anyone (and I mean really anyone) can fire 6 burts in 3 seconds (i know what i am talking about.. I tryied myself this its not that accurate but hell I am no profesional soldier etc) - even with pistol fire 6 rounds in 3 seconds its not hard
but initiative says u have only 4 simple actions so u can fire 4...
if u want to make it so real than dont use initiative as well

wired reflexes says that u r see world very slowly so why the hell is not real to split ammo because most of the book is not based on real life or world
do as you want in your group but that is what rules says you can do... and I dont know how others but I am asking questions to clarify rules u can propose your "hose rule" but not says that is impossible even when rules says it is

anyway I still didnt get answer to my question as I said its theoretical...
first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target
will u have new role to first target or not
if not why? (dont want coversation about how fast is burst fire)
its just simple clarification how rules work...

[Michael Chandra]

The rules are very clear: You can only use 1 Attack Action of ANY kind per Action Phase. So firing two guns at the same time is allowed, firing a gun in a Complex Action is allowed, but firing a gun twice in a single IP is not allowed.

As for your Pistol statement: If you have 2 Initiative Passes in a single combat turn, you can fire 2 Complex Bursts at a total of 6 bullets. An FA weapon can fire 20 bullets in that same timespan. However, bursts don't just involve pray-and-spray, it involves actually firing at a specific target. So it's not just a matter of pulling the trigger. If you want to do that, use Suppressive Fire at 20 bullets per IP. That lets you fire 40 in a 2-IP CT.

We cannot give you clarification on how splitting bursts works. These rules are currently missing and require errata.

As for your theoretical question, I'm afraid I cannot read your posts well enough to understand the actual question.

[Xenon]

^This

(Small note on suppressive fire; it last an entire combat turn and still only cost 20 bullets).

You either fire a pistol once and then spend the rest of the action phase controlling recoil and taking a simple action that is not an attack action (like Take Cover or Take Aim) or you fire the pistol as fast as you can pull the trigger and still maintain some accuracy by taking a semi automatic burst complex action shooting 3 bullets per action phase (just be mindful of recoil when you use this fire mode). A Semi automatic burst can be used to fire at up to three different targets by the rules outlined on p.167

With 2 IP you can fire a pistol 6 times in 3 seconds by taking 2 semi automatic burst actions. With a burst weapon you can fire 4 times (for a total of 12 bullets) in 3 seconds by taking 2 Long Burst complex actions (again be mindful of recoil when you use this fire mode). A Long Burst can be used to fire at two different targets by the rules outlined on p.167


There are no rules to split a burst beyond that. It might or might not be possible. Future errata will hopefully either include rules how to do it or remove the reference to do it on p 179 (or at least change the sentence to indicate that you only can take the multiple attack action on simple action burst fire if you dual wield).

As for your question. If you use a semi automatic weapon, have 5+ skill and all three targets are within short or medium range then you can use a complex action to fire one bullet on each target by splitting your pool (as even as possible) by 3. You resolve each attack individually by taking 3 separate weapon skill + agility [accuracy] vs. reaction + intuition tests. Targets take one bullet each so no negative dice pool modifier for defense. Each target take base weapon DV (if you hit) resisted like normal (Armor, Armor penetrering,  body etc)..... Which part is confusing?

[Zar]

Weapon DV + Net hits, as usual.

Burst fire only affects the ennemies defence pool.

I've had times when the target didn't have a defense action so I used the defense modifier as AP value.  I actually do not see a reason why the player why the player couldn't choose between defense mod and AP mod but that's house rule territory.

[ZeConster]

If they don't have a defense action, you don't have to use a burst. I would think that defense penalties that reduce your dice pool below 0 work the same way as AP on targets with little or no armor: it's reduced to 0, and the rest doesn't have any effect.
As for having multiple options of what you want a burst to do: Narrow Bursts (instead of a defense penalty, there's a DV bonus that doesn't count for determining if it's Stun or Physical) existed in 4th edition, but they were not included in 5th edition, probably because it would be too lethal.

[Michael Chandra]

Weapon DV + Net hits, as usual.

Burst fire only affects the ennemies defence pool.

I've had times when the target didn't have a defense action so I used the defense modifier as AP value.  I actually do not see a reason why the player why the player couldn't choose between defense mod and AP mod but that's house rule territory.

Quite simply Narrow Bursts are currently not an option and may be brought back (perhaps nerfed) in a future book. With the increase of lethality on a hit, narrow bursts are really dangerous nowadays so it's a good thing they removed them for now.

[Agonar]

Scenario
If you have one target standing 20m to your right, one target standing 30m in front of you and a third target standing 190m to your right
- and in between you have friendly targets.

If you have a BF weapon and you tap your trigger once to fire a burst of 3 bullets it would not even be Hollywood realistic to swipe the weapon from left to right during the less than 0.2 seconds it take for the weapon to fire 3 bullets and time it so that each three bullets that automatically leave the barrel of your gun when you tap the trigger once hit bad guys (and does not even risk hitting your friendly targets at all). Even Robocop spend one individual 3 bullet burst per target for crying out loud The target at 190m would not be illegal since you don't use the Long Burst complex action - There is no mention about your targets having to be at short or medium range when you take the simple action to fire a burst at p.165 (then again the simple action 3 bullet burst action on p.165 does not even mention taking the multiple attacks action to attack different targets to begin with - unless you dual wield)

No, but 3 bullet Burst fire does mention it on page 179.  There are several rules where multiple pages have to be referenced to get the full listing.  Take Called Shots. on p.163, Free Actions, Call a Shot references Called Shots on p.178.  On p.178, under Called Shot, it then sends you to p.195 before you actually see what Called Shots does., so just because one entry does not list the option, one of the 2 or 3 entries does

Can you find support for it in the rules? Sure. Maybe. Well... the only support for this is a single line on p.179 really (which might or might not be a copy pasta error. might or might not talk about dual wielding). Does that mean any GM out there would allow it? I sure hope not (but i guess some would).

I checked SR4a, and the entry is nowhere near similar, so I don't see how it could have been a copy/paste error.  SR4a also had rules where multiple targets meant you rolled your full dice pool for the first target, 2 less for the next, 2 less again for the next... so very little to no chance of it being a C&P error.

As for the scenario, as a GM I would allow this with a Smart weapon.  The character declares his intent to fire at all 3 targets, the computer system holds firing till the weapon is pointing at each target in turn.  I just made a character with a Smart Ares Alpha, 13d6 attack pool, and RC 8.. So, for this shot the penalties being -3 Recoil (possibly offset by RC), and -3 for long range (since it is the highest environmental modifier).  -6.  If it's the first burst fire, then it's only -3, taking the pool from 13 down to 10d6.  Splitting it evenly as possible results in 3 shots, 4d6, 3d6, 3d6.  Assuming they have a decent defense, say 10 dice, they are all going to be rolling 10d6 to defend against this, I will likely not hit any of them.  If this was several bursts in, say bullets 9, 10, and 11..  the penalties would be -3 range, -3 Recoil (-11+8), -6 dice, leaving a total of 7d6... 3d6, 2d6, 2d6.  I probably wouldn't take this shot, but assuming I did, I have a decent change of glitching, and very little chance of actually hitting.

Same scenario.
You aim at one of the targets within short or medium range (lets say the left target), tap the trigger once, out flies 3 bullets in a pretty tight formation. You point the weapon towards the second target within short or medium range (this would be the frontal target), tap the trigger once - and out flies 3 bullets towards this target as well.

Would a GM allow  this? Hell yes. This is very much supported by the Long Burst complex action on p.167
(It is also Hollywood realistic and to some extent real life realistic).

  Not necessarily.  This is how it worked in SR4, where you could take 2 attack actions, and in theory, you could split this 6 burst complex into two 3rnd simple actions.  In SR5, this would be a 6 rnd burst, split between 2 targets, dice pool gets split in two, bullets get split in two, modifiers are figured out the same way.  Defense penalties are figured the same way

If you didn't try it, please load up your  favorite FPS and grab a burst fire weapon. Then you tap the trigger and try to spin around to accurately land individual bullets on individual targets. It will just not happen. Then you try to tap the trigger once against one target, aim at a second target and tap the trigger again. Very possible to do. Maybe this is why there is no mentioning about taking the multiple attack free action when you only tap the trigger once (p.165 - unless you dual wield) and why they do mention it when they talk about about the long burst action when you tap the trigger twice (p.167).

  Again.. Real life, and even FPS games don't accurately convey the concepts of Wired Reflexes or Smartweapons.  Then again, in Call of Duty, there are several Breach scenes that sort of convey Wired Reflexes, and the game slows down so much that you can hold the trigger and sweep a continuous burst so that each target gets 1 bullet if you have the controller response/speed set high enough.

[Xenon]

It is a bit strange that a full auto burst against one target does not deal more damage. Than again it is a lot harder to avoid getting hit by full automatic fire (or stagger down the DV). It only get strange when target is unaware or surprised (but ranged combat is petty lethal as is when target does not get to take a defense test - it probably don't have to be even more lethal).

Full auto to cover a frontal area have good and solid rules in suppressive fire rules.

One of the few advantages of using semi automatic compared to full auto is that against targets that are surprised or unaware a semi automatic weapon can be used to target up to 3 targets (that don't have to be standing in a frontal cone area) in one complex action where all three targets have little to no chance to avoid getting hit... While full auto only would generate a lot of wasted recoil and still only hit one target. A Pretty good balancing factor.

[Agonar]

anyway I still didnt get answer to my question as I said its theoretical...
first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target
will u have new role to first target or not
if not why? (dont want coversation about how fast is burst fire)
its just simple clarification how rules work...

I don't understand what you are trying to ask.  Are these single shots?  In which case, Action Phase 1, you fire at target 1.  Action Phase 2, you fire at target 2.  Action Phase 3, you fire at target 1 again.

If you mean a single burst of 3 bullets, you essentially are dividing your 3 bullets, so 2 would go to target 1, and 1 to target 2.  Split your dice pool, and each target rolls their Defense.  Target 1 rolls Defense -1d6 (for the 2nd bullet), target 2 rolls full defense.   That is splitting a single attack action. 

You cannot get a second attack roll against the first target on the same Action Phase.

[Xenon]

I checked SR4a, and the entry is nowhere near similar...

Maybe it is a copy pasta error from Long Burst or Semi-Automatic burst (that both obviously allow you to take the multiple attack action on one burst). Maybe they are talking about that you are allowed to take the multiple attack free action to attack multiple targets in one burst when you dual wield. Maybe they do mean that you are supposed to split a 3 bullet burst on multiple targets but forgot to supply rules how to resolve it under the simple actions on p.165

The book is ambiguous enough to support a reading where you can split a 3 bullet burst from a burst fire weapon, but there are no rules how to resolve it. It does not matter if you or me are correct on this matter, the book simply is need of errata on this no matter how you read it.

In the meantime I choose to read it the way it make most sense (and to me it is that you can take the complex action "Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto" on p.165 or the "Suppressive Fire" on p.179 if you want to attack more than one target with a ranged weapon - without dual wielding)

There are simply no other actions that explain how you attack multiple targets with a ranged weapon (except if you dual wield).
I personally think that this is because no other ranged attacks are supposed to be split on multiple targets (unless you dual wield).

As for the scenario, as a GM I would allow this with a Smart weapon. 

There are no rule support that it would be allowed with a smart weapon.

Of course you can make up all kinds of rules to make it work (i already said that).

But if you want official written rules for it then you have to wait for the errata (but there is also a chance that the errata will clarify that you can't split a 3 bullet burst on multiple targets and if you want to attack multiple targets with a simple burst fire action you have to dual wield).

The character declares his intent to fire at all 3 targets, the computer system holds firing till the weapon is pointing at each target in turn. 

I can't find any reference to that either, so that would be another house rule...

...and in theory, you could split this 6 burst complex into two 3rnd simple actions.  In SR5, this would be a 6 rnd burst, split between 2 targets, dice pool gets split in two, bullets get split in two, modifiers are figured out the same way.  Defense penalties are figured the same way

It is not a 6 bullet full auto burst where you aim in the general direction of one target and hold the trigger for about half a second before you let go and stabilize the weapon for the remaining of the combat turn. This is a Long burst where you tap the trigger once. The weapon will automatically spit out 3 bullets. You aim at the next target and then tap the trigger again. The weapon automatically spit out 3 more bullets.

Again.. Real life, and even FPS games don't accurately convey the concepts of Wired Reflexes or Smartweapons. 

SR5 combat is based on a similar Hollywood Reality you see in action movies.
It let you make amazing stuff, but there are limits to what you can and cannot do even in SR5.

I am not talking about wired reflexes or smartweapons
Benefits of using Wired reflexes and smartweapons are well explained in other parts of the book.
(having said that, rules as written for "Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto" on p.165 work very well with both wired reflexes and smartweapons).

Aiming at one target. Tap the trigger. Automatically fire 3 bullets at the target. Aim at a second target. Tap the trigger. Automatically fire 3 bullets at the target.... This make sense.

Aiming at one target. Tap the trigger. Spin around and point at different targets while the weapon automatically fire 3 bullets in a very short time-frame... And having the same dice pool to hit as the option above where you aim at two targets and tap the trigger twice...? This does not make sense. Honestly can't see how you can defend it.

Then again, in Call of Duty, there are several Breach scenes that sort of convey Wired Reflexes, and the game slows down so much that you can hold the trigger and sweep a continuous burst so that each target gets 1 bullet if you have the controller response/speed set high enough.

Even in slow motion you can't really use a burst mode weapon to tap the trigger once which will make the weapon automatically fire 3 bullets - and then land them on 3 different targets by moving your weapon around while the bullets automatically leave the weapon.

But in slow-motion you can hit each individual target with an individual 3 bullet burst quite easy...
Even if the targets are not even next to each other (or even in front of you)

[Xenon]

first ammo on first target
second on second target
third on first target

This is actually how the semi-automatic burst (or whatever the pistol skill is called) in Shadowrun Returns work

[Shadowik]

I don't understand what you are trying to ask.  Are these single shots?  In which case, Action Phase 1, you fire at target 1.  Action Phase 2, you fire at target 2.  Action Phase 3, you fire at target 1 again.

If you mean a single burst of 3 bullets, you essentially are dividing your 3 bullets, so 2 would go to target 1, and 1 to target 2.  Split your dice pool, and each target rolls their Defense.  Target 1 rolls Defense -1d6 (for the 2nd bullet), target 2 rolls full defense.   That is splitting a single attack action. 

You cannot get a second attack roll against the first target on the same Action Phase.

why i need to fire 2 bullets on first target?
what if I have 3 targets and after first 2 shots (2 bullets in this case) I decide not to use it on 3rd target but on first again

its simple u fire 3 ammo and u decide to split them that is the question what u can do with them and what not... by the rules ofc...

[Michael Chandra]

That's not allowed. You can fire at multiple targets with the same burst, and there's no clear rules on how that would work yet. But you can't attack the same guy twice with the same burst. If you want that, you'll have to dual-wield and fire both at the same time.

[Shadowik]

That's not allowed. You can fire at multiple targets with the same burst, and there's no clear rules on how that would work yet. But you can't attack the same guy twice with the same burst. If you want that, you'll have to dual-wield and fire both at the same time.

that is the question... cause I can't find it in rules that this is not alowed cause technically its "new" target

[Michael Chandra]

No it isn't. You can split a burst over multiple targets, not over the same target multiple times.