[Shadowik]

No it isn't. You can split a burst over multiple targets, not over the same target multiple times.

you are not
its 2 targets and then is third wich is same as first but is still new target
what will happen with third ammo if I cant shoot at first target again
and why i can't do it? I can shoot at third wich can be few meters in side but can't go back?

so from my point of view this is not in rules...
anyway its not cover of this topic and there is lot of questions how spliting works so we need to wait for "official" statement in this...

[Michael Chandra]

It says "multiple targets" in the rules. Period. There is no rule supporting attacking the same person twice with the same burst. No matter how unclear the rules are, what you're talking about is not an option.

[Alchemyst]

No it isn't. You can split a burst over multiple targets, not over the same target multiple times.

you are not
its 2 targets and then is third wich is same as first but is still new target
what will happen with third ammo if I cant shoot at first target again
and why i can't do it? I can shoot at third wich can be few meters in side but can't go back?

so from my point of view this is not in rules...
anyway its not cover of this topic and there is lot of questions how spliting works so we need to wait for "official" statement in this...

You calculate everything before actually rolling. You choose targets, THEN roll. Choosing one target twice is not two separate targets.

Multiple Attack process:
• Choose targets
• Apply all modifiers (Wound, Environmental, Situational, and the full recoil of all attacks if it’s a ranged attack)
• Split Dice Pool
• Roll attacks.

It is not, apply modifiers, roll, attack, repeat for each target.

[Xenon]

^This


But it doesn't actually say you can't decide that the targets are Player A, Player B and Player A again.
(and it is this way it works in Shadowrun Returns)

The free action is not called Multiple Targets.
It is called Multiple Attacks.

It also doesn't say you can never attack the same target twice.

That is just something we been told is the intention
(but yes, from respected names like Bull and Aaron).

It just say that you can't take two attack actions in an initiative pass...
(but in this example we are taking about using the same Semi-Auto Burst to take 3 shots -and splitting the dice pool three times- as one attack action) .


By RAW it is OK to use throwing weapons against the same target more than once in the same attack action
(this might or might not be changed in a future Errata, but as the rule is currently written....)


So - by RAW there is actually nothing, or very little, that say you can't attack the same target twice in the same attack action...



The question isn't unjustified by any means.

[Michael Chandra]

The free action is not called Multiple Targets.
It is called Multiple Attacks.

It also doesn't say you can never attack the same target twice.

That is just something we been told is the intention
[...]
So - by RAW there is actually nothing, or very little, that say you can't attack the same target twice in the same attack action...

[Any burst type] bursts can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst.

[Xenon]

[Any burst type] bursts can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst.

Player A, Player B and Player A are multiple targets

[Michael Chandra]

Even if you wish to argue that, it doesn't change the fact you made an incorrect claim about the rules.

As for splitting a burst over the same person twice, there's a word for that: It's called targetting the person with a single burst. If you fire multiple bullets at the same person, they take a dodge penalty, they don't take two attacks. So there's clear precedence in the rules on how to handle that. And yes, there is no rulelawyer explanation that multiple targets means multiple people and not the same target twice. But in my opinion, that is not an explanation that should be there in the first place since it's what the words mean. The book isn't written for abusive players that want to twist language to get what they want, it's written for players and GMs to have fun with it.

Occam's Razor applies here: If the rules want to allow you to split a burst and target a single person twice with it, the errata'd burst rules will say that. Until then, logic says multiple targets actually means different targets and not the same person twice.

[Xenon]

You noticed i started with "^This", right?

I don't argue that you can fire at player A, player B and player A again

I just say that Shadowik didn't place a bad question. The rules are not crystal clear.




No need to take it personally Michael.

[Top Dog]

I just went over the Combat section and indeed, it isn't clearly spelled out. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that, if you attack multiple targets, each target takes a dice penalty on defense equal to the amount of bullets he received, but I can't find that anywhere either. Which would mean that all three (or two) parties take a -2 because it's still a short burst? (By RAW, I think we all know that's not RAI).

Allowing a Short Burst to target the same person twice the way you describe here is... silly though. If I have one opponent, I can only hit him once, but if there's two, I can suddenly hit the first opponent twice? Still, I can't find actual rules forbidding that either.

[Michael Chandra]

Actually, it's not clear whether that'd be RAI. In SR4, you'd split the burst but not the dicepool, so whether you'd split both the burst and dicepool in SR5 isn't clear.

[Top Dog]

What I ment was, if you attack, say, 6 targets with a long burst, 1 bullet each, do they take a -5 dodge penalty each for receiving a long burst? The rules say you take the -5 if the attacker did a long burst. It says that's because of the amount of bullets flying at you (so RAI is that it's dependant on that), but it doesn't actually make it dependant on that in the actual rules, and Multiple Attacks is silent on it as well. So RAW all 6 targets would receive the -5. Which is silly.

[Michael Chandra]

Multiple Attacks doesn't mention how splitting bursts works, so there is no RAW on the matter. But even if it was RAW, I'm not sure it would be silly, given the fact you're using up a lot of RC and splitting the dicepool.

[Shadowik]

I think we can wait for errata on multiple attacks cause rules says neraly nothing how to use it or if does there are lot of questions unanswered
what I described was not what I want to do or use but I have in group one guy wich is like what is not forbidden in rules it is allowed and in most case he is right

[Michael Chandra]

And that is the wrong attitude to take. In some cases, the rules explicitly state what your options are. They do not actively forbid every other option, but that doesn't mean that other options exist. For example, the rules state there's 2 ways for Adepts to get Power Points after chargen. That doesn't mean a third method exists. They state a list of Called Shots, and unless you houserule other Called Shots they do not exist. They state the types of cover, you can't argue "it doesn't say this kind of cover wouldn't give me a -6 so clearly it does".

That said, there are indeed cases where if the rules don't actively forbid something it is generally allowed, but that often comes from a list forbidding things. For example, the rules state Summoned&Bound Spirits do not have Edge available. This means that any not-currently-Summoned/Bound Spirit has Edge available and is capable of using it.

If the rules state what the options are, those are the options. If they state what isn't allowed, you use common sense to determine what is allowed. If the rules use a phrase that common sense tells you has a specific meaning, unless official clarification or other segments of the rules make clear that isn't what it means, that will be what it means.

So short summary: If the rules explicitly state your options, other options are not allowed by default. If they do not, only then will your group-member's opinion be correct, albeit by GM fiat.


Random example: In SR4, one quality let you take something "for free". Common sense says free means no nuyen costs. Someone argued that this means no Essence Cost either, because it's labelled a Cost and the rules did not explicitly state it wasn't included. To him, free meant "no costs of any type", whereas to most free means "no monetary cost". The rules did not state it would not cost Essence, but common sense did.

[Xenon]

common sense and rules tell us that it is ok to use a semi automatic weapon to tap the trigger once in a action phase against one target (you don't split pool and target take -0 dice to their defense test).

common sense and rules tell us that it is ok to use a semi automatic weapon to tap the trigger three times in one action phase (be mindful of progressive recoil when you use this fire mode) against either one target (in this case you don't split pool and target take -2 dice to their defense test) or against three different targets as long as they are within short or medium range (in this case splitting the pool three times and targets take -0 to their defense test as you use a normal semi automatic attack against each of them).

common sense and rules tell us that it is ok to use a burst fire weapon to tap the trigger once in one action phase against one target (you don't split pool and target take -2 dice to their defense test).

common sense and rules tell us that it is ok to use a burst fire weapon to tap the trigger twice in one action phase (be mindful of progressive recoil when you use this fire mode) against either one target (in this case you don't split pool and target take -5 dice to their defense test) or against two different targets as long as they are within short or medium range by tapping the trigger once on each target (in this case splitting the pool and both targets take -2 to their defense test as you use a normal burst fire attack against each of them).





you might or might not be allowed to tap the trigger once on a semi automatic weapon and attack skill / 2 targets with only one bullet. there are no rules how to resolve it and common sense tell us that it is not really viable. if this is supposed to be ok then it will have to be described in a future errata (or house ruled)

you might or might not be allowed to tap the trigger three times on a semi automatic weapon and attack one target, a second target and then first target again. if this is supposed to be ok then it will have to be described in a future errata (or house ruled)

you might or might not be allowed to tap the trigger once on a burst fire weapon and swing the weapon around very fast while the weapon automatically spit out three bullets so each bullet land on up to skill / 2 targets (which might or might not be more than the number of bullets you fire) that might or might not have to be within short or medium range (only a limit on the long burst version). there are no rules how to resolve it and common sense tell us that it is not really viable. if this (or parts of it) is supposed to be ok then it will have to be described in a future errata (or house ruled)

you might or might not be allowed to tap the trigger twice on a burst fire weapon and swing the weapon around very fast while the weapon automatically spit out three plus three bullets in such way that each bullet land on a different target. there are no rules how to resolve it and common sense tell us that it is not really viable. if this is supposed to be ok then it will have to be described in a future errata (or house ruled)




until it is described in a future errata i will personally only use the first four paragraphs.
they make sense and they have solid support by the rules
(but since splitting the pool is almost never worth it i will almost always attack only one target anyway....)