[Angelone]

I agree with Herr Goodman, Critias, and Bull, it's better to have the stats and ignore them than to not have the stats and people complain about it. You can always tweak the numbers for your game.

My only real problem with the stating of some of the NPCs is there's a definite "That's it?" feel to some. Part of me realizes it's the limitations within the system and no fault of the authors. You can't stat everyone the same way or people will complain and you can't "max out" the NPCs or people will complain. It's a fine line and for the most part I think they are doing a good job.

[All4BigGuns]

What players want and what they can get are (or at least should be) two very different things.

My view is more "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same". Doesn't necessarily mean in creation or walking into a store to buy it, but the players should be able to expect that their GM will provide whatever it is they're wanting at some point.

[Patrick Goodman]

It's also been my experience in 32 years of this (yes, I'm playing the grognard card...they're no good if you don't lay them down once in a while): Players don't always know what they want.

Sure, they wanna win, and in the end (I believe in campaigns ending; prolonged affairs don't hold a lot of interest to me) they should probably be allowed to do so. But most of them, whether they realize it or not, want the GM to kick the crap out of their characters along the way. They don't want their characters to die...but the ultimate victory is a lot sweeter if, when they arrive there, they look like Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard. They wanna win, but they wanna fuckin' earn it.

The ones who wanna kill Lofwyr because he now has stats don't wanna earn it. They just wanna do it because they think they can.

A good GM won't let them just waltz in and do it. A crap GM will just give them what they want.

[Red]

It's also been my experience in 32 years of this (yes, I'm playing the grognard card...they're no good if you don't lay them down once in a while): Players don't always know what they want.

Sure, they wanna win, and in the end (I believe in campaigns ending; prolonged affairs don't hold a lot of interest to me) they should probably be allowed to do so. But most of them, whether they realize it or not, want the GM to kick the crap out of their characters along the way. They don't want their characters to die...but the ultimate victory is a lot sweeter if, when they arrive there, they look like Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard. They wanna win, but they wanna fuckin' earn it.

The ones who wanna kill Lofwyr because he now has stats don't wanna earn it. They just wanna do it because they think they can.

A good GM won't let them just waltz in and do it. A crap GM will just give them what they want.

Very well put. I had a player who secretly speced his character out to secretly begin his own personal quest of acquiring a Thor Cannon. I don't think he had any idea what he was going to do with it once he had it, he just knew he HAD to have it.

Thankfully, the player was reasonable, ended up actually PLAYING, and as a reward, he got to fire one off. ONCE. At a plot-critical target. In the ocean.

[CanRay]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

Meh.  I rarely bother with official stats for stuff when I GM a home game regardless.   

My GM taught me one important GM motto:  Dice are for sound effect only.  aka,. concentrate on telling a good story and letting the players have fun, and don't let the dice, stats, numbers, or even rules get in the way of that.

Bull

On the bright side, if you annoy us, we can now kill you as we have your stats, Bull.   

[Mirikon]

Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.

Yes, because there are stats on Lofwyr, some moron could go and try to kill him. He may even come up with a plan that might have more than a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. But sometimes players want stupid things, and must be corrected in their outlook. While no one 'enjoys' a TPK, sometimes it is the medicine needed to snap players back to reality when they go after stupid things, despite all warnings to stop.

If you don't like the stats, ignore them. Hell, there are people out there who apparently don't like the fact that there are vampires in Shadowrun, and ignore everything to do with them. Why can't you do the same for some game info?

[All4BigGuns]

Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.

Gamers tend to be very intelligent in general. Customers, in general, tend to be--or become--very stupid the moment they reach the counter. 

[redwolf]

that right the customer is never right but he is the customer so we got to be b.p to him

[Mirikon]

Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.

Gamers tend to be very intelligent in general. Customers, in general, tend to be--or become--very stupid the moment they reach the counter. 

Sorry to burst your bubble, Guns, but just because you're a geek, doesn't mean you're intelligent. And just because you're intelligent, doesn't mean you don't want stupid things or make bad decisions.

[All4BigGuns]

Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.

Gamers tend to be very intelligent in general. Customers, in general, tend to be--or become--very stupid the moment they reach the counter. 

Sorry to burst your bubble, Guns, but just because you're a geek, doesn't mean you're intelligent. And just because you're intelligent, doesn't mean you don't want stupid things or make bad decisions.

The comment was just meant to bring a chuckle. I guess I failed 

[SwampFox]

Man, when I started this thing I didn't even think I'd get beyond 50 or so replies.  This has been awesome just to watch!

[Black]

Man, when I started this thing I didn't even think I'd get beyond 50 or so replies.  This has been awesome just to watch!

Clockwork is currently a fun topic around here   Of course now that Twilight Horizon is out...

[Mirikon]

Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.

[Ragnarok]

Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.

What's going on (I don't have that book)?

[Angelone]

Horizon's plan to drive a wedge between the Jackpointers worked. Clockwork seems to be on board with it. Fastjack is getting annoyed and is about to start banning people.

Edit- He's really gone off the deep end, whatever is going to happen is going to happen soon. It's sad/funny that he sees himself a righteous crusader and all technos and AIs are criminal scum.