[Kulthozuer]

Sorry, havn't been on in a while I just moved into a dorm and I could not recieve internet for AWHILE. I don't have that exact group anymore because I moved away for college but interestingly enough one of the two players happens to go to college about 5 minutes from me so he will be playing again. As far as them not wanting to play I'm pretty sure they do especially because the one I'm near now asked me to play and start a campaign and the other one contacted me and asked me if he could play now I'm sure they are just having a hard time like people said here understanded the world and being creative. The technomancer character was extremely excited to be and has played a technomancer twice now, he really loves the concept of a technomancer and so do I but I think he could benefit from playing a simpler character for the time being, I may suggest that too him next time we play as he doesn't even know how the matrix works normally let alone using sprites and such. I've read all this stuff and I will take it into account next group I get I'm also going to try and get a bigger group (3-4 people) to relieve the duty of doing everything from just a few people. First mission.... Find players....

[Zilfer]

SR4A p192 has a good picture.  Someone viewing the astral.  Obviously the person in the foreground who DOESN'T have an aura is the person doing the viewing.  But you'll see that the walls are there.  The bar too, see how the bartender's aura disappears behind it?

Anyhow, back to topic.

So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story.  They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told."  I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them.  I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.

So anyhow, I'm planning a session where the J is going to tell them to dress up in suits, treat them to breakfast at some diner, tell them the job is a heist, then give them their code names for the run: Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Ms. Blue, and Mr. Pink.  If they don't catch the hint and check to find out if the run is a set up I'm going to make it my goal to make them each burn an edge to survive.  It's been almost 2 years of Shadowrunning, they should know to check the J's story out by now.

Yep I saw that.

Curiously how do you have your players "Check the J's Story" <.< do they do a google search? If anyone can explain in more detail it would be greatly appreciated.

[Tagz]

Yep I saw that.

Curiously how do you have your players "Check the J's Story" <.< do they do a google search? If anyone can explain in more detail it would be greatly appreciated.

Well, as of yet they haven't done anything to check up.  Haven't looked up the names supplied on the matrix unless asked to.  They don't talk to contacts that would have reason to know about the situation unless it's for the express purpose of getting the job DONE, never to find any background info.  The face never uses his (usually) 2x dice pool to convince the J, the Fixer, or anyone else for that matter, to part with any info that isn't strictly necessary.  And there has been no shortage of betrayals, dicking over, or lying on the Johnson's part.

At first I thought they just hated doing legwork of any sort so only did what was necessary, but they all have fairly significant legwork skills and just last session there was this exchange:

Player 1: "Man, I love doing legwork.  Cause I ROCK at it."
Player 2: "I know right?"

I just tried not to facepalm thinking of all the opportunities they've passed up to get valuable intel.  You can lead a horse to water....

So, I figure it's one of two things: 1) They just aren't thinking to do it, 2) They have a self imposed code of conduct that treats all jobs as on a "need to know basis".  The first is easy to deal with, I just remind them with hints in game.  The second, well... As a GM I'm not sure I should try to change that.  If that is a value they have as a team, or a rep they are trying to build in the shadows as people who can be trusted not to expose a J, then I should let them have it.  Won't mean that they might not have negative consequences from it, but I won't outright try to change their minds.

So, anyhow, my idea is to make the setup a bit obvious and see if they still don't check the run out to see if it scans.  If they check it out, then they might just not be thinking to.  If they talk about it but don't check it out then I've found the one set of values my team actually has.


Anyhow, as far as checking up on a J, there are lots of things you can do.
1) Matrix search.  You'll need something to go on, name, photo, employer, etc and the more you start with the better.  Assuming the person isn't important enough that they can afford to remain hidden, but not so important that they can't remain hidden (like a CEO, gang leader, major shareholder, Police Captain, etc).

2) Buy off the Fixer who set up the meet.  Fixers are in it to make a buck and even if they don't know everything about the J, they should know enough to get started.  Some or all of that info might be for sale.  That said, they need to balance their reputation with making that buck, otherwise they're out of a job, six feet under, or worse.  Depending on how important to the Fixer that rep is, it could be a pretty penny, 20 nuyen, tickets to the Seahawks game, a favor that turns into another run, or out of the question entirely.  Also, keep in mind, if the fixer is willing to sell out another client to you, they'll likely sell YOU out to another client.  This is why it's good to get a high loyalty score with fixers, but sometimes even that's not enough.  Way of the world chummer.

Anyhow, knowing who the J is can be a huge help.  A little covert surveillance can usually tell you if he's setting up a cleaning crew to take your team out when it's over, overhear a conversation that has clues to the REAL reason for the run, etc. 

3) Contacts.  Everyone should have some, faces should have an army.  Make friends in all sorts of places.  They're helpful with more then favors, they can provide info, rumors, confirm things you've heard elsewhere that didn't sound like chip truth.

4) Just hit the streets.  Talk to groups that have reason to have some info on things.  They might know about some detail that doesn't add up to something the J may have told you.

And of course, a little dishonesty is practically expected.  If a few of the details don't mesh up it doesn't necessarily mean "Don't do the run".  But it's smart to check it out in the chance the team might be being set up to take the fall.

[kirk]

One thing you might try (it'll be tricky, but...) is for them to get two jobs at pretty much the same time that sorta force their hands. Two rivals seeking info on each other, as an example.

A darker option that'll take longer but which can be even more effective is to have them hired by a /real/ villain, and then be forced to recognize the consequences of not checking the person out. As one example, Mr. Johnson is one of those guys who's wife leaves with the kids, so he finds and kills them. Your team is hired to find them and keep Mr. Johnson updated as to their location. They get to witness the murders. To rub it in, guess who's either getting framed or betrayed (or both)? If they'd only done some basic legwork... (Note that there are some players for whom the result is to just shrug; it's just another job. For them the betrayal is the better teacher.)

[Zilfer]

Sounds like some good tips there, though as the DM of most of the shadowrun sessions, I know my group mostly only does legwork on trying on probing security at whatever place they are going to hit. My group is more prone to getting into gun fights, because there's usually a decent amount of security. I don't blame them because I myself as a player would find it hard to get around some of my own security. xD

Had metal dectors on the first floor, and the sixth floor was hidden from normal view. One of the Awakened astral preceptioned the sixth floor and they figured that's where everything was. The man also managed to surface thoughts one of the employee's leaving the place for some information. (they obtained that the security people basically lived in the building) Also one of them went in invisible stalking a gaurd with a few lucky rolls and found out there was a mage.

Heh was like this.... guard walks up to a second elevator (he had gone up to the fifth floor and walked down some hallways to get to this floor. The guy talks a little bit with the guard at the elevator door, mentions something about their car getting messed up by a troll. (happened a little earlier with the group's troll getting ambushed) Then he says "you know the drill". (that's when the mage tells the awakened adept to run! (they guessed right that the person was going to astrally preceive and if he didn't get around the corner in time... xD)

Anyways the next night or so they hit it. They don't get past the metal detector <.< without an alarm going off so *shrugs*.

Anyways as i was going to say before that tangent, that I'm not sure I plan out all the details behind the Johnson wanting this done though I'm sure I could easily come up with a reason. I usually go for the general gist of an idea and go with it. (happens when you have most of your time eaten up by work, and free relax time at home eaten up by video games and said friends showing up during the week as well as DnD weekend. xD)

Anyways what type of bonus' would typically come out of this leg work? Any specific examples for me to work off of so i can encourage this? As well as any tips for nudging them to learn how to be more stealthy? xD Thanks. (I think we also need tips on how to lie your way in and out of a situation as a face but you know all good things in time)

[Zilfer]

One thing you might try (it'll be tricky, but...) is for them to get two jobs at pretty much the same time that sorta force their hands. Two rivals seeking info on each other, as an example.

A darker option that'll take longer but which can be even more effective is to have them hired by a /real/ villain, and then be forced to recognize the consequences of not checking the person out. As one example, Mr. Johnson is one of those guys who's wife leaves with the kids, so he finds and kills them. Your team is hired to find them and keep Mr. Johnson updated as to their location. They get to witness the murders. To rub it in, guess who's either getting framed or betrayed (or both)? If they'd only done some basic legwork... (Note that there are some players for whom the result is to just shrug; it's just another job. For them the betrayal is the better teacher.)

Betrayal as in framing them? (heh I know some people who would just shrug at that, they'd want to go kill the johnson maybe but i'm sure they wouldn't mind if they got paid, but if they didn't i'm sure they'd go after him. XD)

An interesting idea, we'll see how it goes, if I do it. xD

[JoeNapalm]

My current team's intel collection SOP:

1. Find someone who might know something.

2. Kidnap (also known as "v&nning")

3. Three-pronged Good Cop, Bad Cop, Mind-Reading Cop by Hobgoblin Merc (very Bad Cop), Dryad Face (ridonkulus Good Cop), and Fomori Mage (Analyze Truth/Mind Probe Cop).

4. If they identify anyone else who might know something, goto step 2. Otherwise, goto step 1.

5. Repeat as necessary.


I'm not going to say it's a great plan...but it does have a certain effectiveness.  The biggest problem, so far, is what do you do with the people after step 4? So far, we've been having the Merc Intimidate them half to death, then cut them loose. *Shrug* It works for the Mafia...why reinvent the wheel?

If you haven't guessed, we're not playing the whole "fighting the good fight" sort of team. We're more of the "I'm going to beat someone like a piñata until money comes out" variety.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Zilfer]

My current team's intel collection SOP:

1. Find someone who might know something.

2. Kidnap (also known as "v&nning")

3. Three-pronged Good Cop, Bad Cop, Mind-Reading Cop by Hobgoblin Merc (very Bad Cop), Dryad Face (ridonkulus Good Cop), and Fomori Mage (Analyze Truth/Mind Probe Cop).

4. If they identify anyone else who might know something, goto step 2. Otherwise, goto step 1.

5. Repeat as necessary.


I'm not going to say it's a great plan...but it does have a certain effectiveness.  The biggest problem, so far, is what do you do with the people after step 4? So far, we've been having the Merc Intimidate them half to death, then cut them loose. *Shrug* It works for the Mafia...why reinvent the wheel?

If you haven't guessed, we're not playing the whole "fighting the good fight" sort of team. We're more of the "I'm going to beat someone like a piñata until money comes out" variety.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Lol ironically we have a troll connected to the mafia.

[Joush]

One thing you might want to try is not being afraid to give them some suggestions of things they could do, or reminders of options they have. Sometimes players have trouble understanding all the things they could do when facing a challenge.

A classic example is a locked warehouse with thugs inside. You might remind them that they can try climb up the building and find a way to sneak in, try to hack the warehouse's security, try knocking on the door and talking their way past the thugs, try bypassing the lock and sneaking inside, blow open the door and kill the guards.. or anything else they can surprise you with. Then give them a little bit to talk it over (Get a glass of water or something) then come back and ask what they do, and if they have any questions.

This gets them talking and introduces the idea that they can go at a task from a bunch of different angles.

[Zilfer]

One thing you might want to try is not being afraid to give them some suggestions of things they could do, or reminders of options they have. Sometimes players have trouble understanding all the things they could do when facing a challenge.

A classic example is a locked warehouse with thugs inside. You might remind them that they can try climb up the building and find a way to sneak in, try to hack the warehouse's security, try knocking on the door and talking their way past the thugs, try bypassing the lock and sneaking inside, blow open the door and kill the guards.. or anything else they can surprise you with. Then give them a little bit to talk it over (Get a glass of water or something) then come back and ask what they do, and if they have any questions.

This gets them talking and introduces the idea that they can go at a task from a bunch of different angles.

Definately because the mentality is so different in this game. The climbing the building totally wouldn't have come up in my classic thinking from DnD. However it indeed gives a different angle.

Though I'm curious if anyone wants to field this question, how do you guys come up with floor plans for your warehouses and such? I mostly create it on the fly if it's necessary. I have a matt to draw it out but i hardly ever do, mostly go by imagination because there's no need to thus far in most of my missions.

[Joush]

The simple thing to do is to draw a box, then put rows inside along with an office and bathroom. Remember that in any sort of modern warehouse there is going to be a forklift that dose the heavy lifting, a pile of spar pallets and loading doors for trucks to dock at, along with in most cases a basic security system. There will be vents on the roof and possibly skylights, less to make the place more attractive then to make it cheaper to work inside it when the sun's up.

In Shadowrun, the forklift might be a drone, the security system is likely a mesh of networked cameras with a comlink to manage them and store their recordings, probably in the small office. RFID scanners to clock workers in and out and track the goods stored inside.

The good thing about warehouses is that they tend to be really simple, in layout. In a pinch, you can always find some online.

[Zilfer]

Nice I'll keep that in mind, and yeah most layout's have been rather simple in mine. They haven't broken into a complex building really yet so i've been good in that department, though if they infiltrate a building with 20 stories i'm curious how most of you GM's "fill" those levels. I'd have a hard time filling them in with different departments, probably because lack of knowledge of what goes into such a building. xD

Thanks for the warehouse tip however.

[Tagz]

Nice I'll keep that in mind, and yeah most layout's have been rather simple in mine. They haven't broken into a complex building really yet so i've been good in that department, though if they infiltrate a building with 20 stories i'm curious how most of you GM's "fill" those levels. I'd have a hard time filling them in with different departments, probably because lack of knowledge of what goes into such a building. xD

Thanks for the warehouse tip however.

One of the easy things you can do is use Extraterritory to your advantage in a pinch.  Lets say I made a building with 30 floors and didn't want to plan all of the floors out.  The players unexpectedly decide to go 12 floors down and take hostages or whatnot, something not predicted.  Well, the entire building need not belong to one corporation, they could own/rent floors separately.  Different floors of a building count as "Continuous and Contiguous", so each floor COULD have it's own corp with it's own law, guards, etc.

Don't want them going on other floors?  Make them completely different companies on them.  Most times a runner group will think twice about pissing off multiple corps on a single run.

It can also make things easier for the runners too, if they consider that just 4 floors up there could be a palm that they can grease to let them escape to, that the guards wouldn't be able to legally pursue.


The other method is copy and paste.  Corps are efficient, they'll likely reuse a functional floor plan over and over on each floor unless there is a reason not to.

[Joush]

Keep in mind that a lot of office buildings won't have one company own a whole floor. There may be a law office next to a dentist, beside a place that dose event planning for corporate moral building events, down the hall from the local Stuffer Shack Corporate office "No, we don't sell any food here.. why do people keep asking that?"

[Phylos Fett]

A generic floor plan for a lot of the floors is fine - you see it all the time (well, at least here), and departments can span multiple floors. Some floors might have fewer offices in preference to boardrooms, and larger offices for executives. Don't forget perks that corps might offer - such as a gym, games rooms - some buildings might even have a pool. Carparks can take up a few floors. Dedicated security floors every 5 or 10 floors so that HTR teams can get where they need to be in a hurry. Is there any living amenities? If so, you can include a couple of levels of shopping, as well as restaurants, bars, and so forth. What exactly is it that the corp does? Maybe they have space where they test out their product, display it, and so forth (like a "trophy" room).

I could keep going, but I think you get the idea.