Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Kulthozuer on <08-18-11/2338:59>
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Ok so I've posted here before I am a relatively new DM as in I have DM'ed many games and I consider myself to be ok at it but i've never played Shadowrun with an experianced DM so the only help I can get is here. I have had some problems with my friends as players in the past in several RPG formats and have had to basicly kick some people out because they would intentionally ruin games if everything didn't go perfect for them. Now that I got together people I've had experiance with taking the game seriously I don't have that problem anymore however I am running into some new problems. I have thought about them and I'm not stupid when it comes to DM'ing but I was wondering if any of you who have had these problems have any advice that worked for you...
Situation: For my new group of players that started at 4 and became 2 before we started I decided to take it easy and run Food Fight 4.0, they have both played before but I felt they could use a review on some things. I had them both do homework (Read sections of the book prior to the game concering their character) So they would better their understanding of the world. The game went alot better than any I have ever run because they actually tried to play, but I ran into some problems that I had a hard time dealing with without severe DM interference which I like to be a very hands off DM as far as infuencing the characters. Not saying i've never railroaded anyone to a situation they needed to be in but I don't like to tell them what they should or can do and let them figure out creative ways with a very slight hand of advice.
Problem 1: My players are SUPER uncreative with all their plans. By that I mean we have a magician and a technomancer and the whole time all they did was shoot. They don't always understand the rules and I tell them constantly that its perfectly fine and they need only ask because the rules of SR4 can be complex but they dont ask or try to do anything. For example the technomancer not once tried to even use the matrix. Even when it was down to him losing his gun and the other player in grave peril he wouldn't use it. I asked him what he would like to do on his turn and he was like "I don't know theres nothing to do" and I basicly had to tell him to use the matrix because he couldn't come up with that himself. He also has read the chapter Wireless World about 2 times so it's not that he doesnt have an idea of what it is. The other character is sort of a face/magician and when prompted with talking to one of the people inside the shop attempting to hide he asked the person for their help. He was hesitant but he made the roll to convince him if he helps they could all escape. Then when the NPC asked him what he can do he didn't respond and just left.
Problem 2: They tend to be super sheepish as far as opposing anyone. When originally told to go by the freezers and drop their guns by Crank they both immediately did so and proceded to just wait and not move like they were told. I tried things such as the NPC's having dialogue over heard so inspire the to fight back or to have other NPC's in the store in fear suggest that if they dont do something there gonna kill us all and such. They eventually just picked up there guns and shot but when the NPC's fired back they dropped their guns and apologized and layed on the ground. I was confused on the point of them not even trying and asked them what they where going to do, they said its pointless because they can't win. Neither of them were too heavy on combat but they were both capable and I was having the Crank and Stooby fight with eachother and other things that opened up for them attacking them in surprise and give them all kinds of opportunities to take them 1 on 1 for example I had Stooby announce to Crank he was going to go check the back but like I stated before they were content on just giving up.
How it ended was I eventually had to basicly walk one through turning off the lights or setting off the alarm to cause a diversion and I had to have some major DM magic save the other one who just lied on his back and gave them his gun and they bothed escaped in the dark practically unopposed but I feel like they would have had a lot more fun if they had y'know done something besides give up and then magically escape.
Sorry for such a long post, I think alot about how I can solve these problems but there are alot of people on here who are so much better at DM'ing and last time I posted I got so much great help.
Thanks :D
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Problem 1: My players are SUPER uncreative with all their plans. By that I mean we have a magician and a technomancer and the whole time all they did was shoot. They don't always understand the rules and I tell them constantly that its perfectly fine and they need only ask because the rules of SR4 can be complex but they dont ask or try to do anything.
Well hullo there!
Although I cannot relate to the entirety of your post and the concerns you have therein raised I can, however, relate to the bit I quoted above.
I've come across some situations wherein players old and new alike have been frustratingly "slow" as to come up with ideas on what to do. To me, and in hindsight, it's mostly a situation where unfamiliarity with the game world is at the core of the problem. Your players will need time to grow comfortable in their alter-egos' skin, and understand what the setting and game are about. Until they do, I would highly recommend you take the lead in this respect and toss unto them a few pointers and cues -- you'll need to "teach" them how to Think Shadowrun.
What's super important when you GM is to minimize "downtime" when there's nothing going on. It's up to you to keep up the flow of things and supplement enough material to help them moving forward (without necessarily solving everything for them, but give them pointers, adapt the situation to suit their needs (for now anyway)), even if a published piece of module doesn't necessarily hint that you should nor precisely how you can go about doing it. It's a skill you learn through practice and trial and error. ;)
Ways to do this include:
Being descriptive of the environment so that the players can see (and feel, and taste and smell (ew)) what's going on around their characters. Giving them details here about things that may be important for them to pay attention to might be a good approach (later on, you'll want to try and not be too obvious with where at you want their focus to be on though!).
Creating situations where their characters can "see how it's done". Now, I'm not at all a fan of NPCs that take the spotlight away from the players and that's not at all to what I'm referring to. Rather, say, in places they go, and with people they meet, have someone in the background deal with a situation your players find problematic. Like, a little side-story that's going on nearby that doesn't necessarily include them (and so, you can't make it terribly important, but it's a useful tool, I've found, to be demonstrative about how things can feasibly be tackled by characters peopling the game world).
A good way to give hints in-game is by creating a "support system" for the players. Have their contacts preemptively contacting them, for example. Asking small things from them to do, favors and the like, so you can help your players develop their SR skills before tackling a full-on scenario.
In time, I'm sure you'll find what works and doesn't work for you in this respect. Don't be afraid to try things out and your players will likely take that as a lead to follow after.
Good luck and have fun!
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Cattle prod.
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Cattle prod.
Also a good approach, yes. Tends to leave some nasty burn marks, though.
I'm sure there's a way to combine both.
*Riiing*Beeep*Squidaddle*BEEP*
Runner-X: "Yeah, hello?"
Fixer: "Hello, Shadow Bob. It's Fixer McFixins'. You know, sometimes when I'm in a rut, I like to double-check an area and then go and talk to the locals in the neighborhood and see if they might know anything about what's going on. Oh, and I should mention I sent Sieger Zapfry to see you. He should be there momentarily."
Runner-X: "Huh? Wha-? You callin' 'bout what again?"
Fixer: "Sieger Zapfry."
Runner-X: "Who?
Fixer: "Sieger..."
Sieger Zapfry: "CATTLE PROD!"
*Bbbbzzzzt--ZZZAAAaaaP[edited due to the graphic nature of events]!*
Runner-X: "YOOOOW -- Son of a b-!"
Fixer: "...Zapfry."
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I have had some issues when players who have been used to a character archetype switch over to another. Shooter gets a new character and becomes a combat mage for example and he keeps going to his gun/katana instead of astral perception/spells/gun/katana. What I did was feed them info they could act on that was unique to their skill sets.
The Dwarf is wearing Hermetic magic symbols on his jacket and his large necklace looks like it could be a focus of the same tradition but you can't be sure unless you astrally perceive it.
The Elf in the dark suit is chanting softly in Speithel and his hands rest on the downed trolls chest. The troll suddenly rocks back and forth hard with the Elf and the trolls chest burns pull together like water flashed frozen. The Elf is rattled as it looks like his spell has taken much out of him.
While waiting for your contact to show up for the meet you, you see the Vid over the bar is Maddox Mage Detective. Your favorite SLIGHTLY exagerated Mage trid show. This the episode where he solves a murder from 60 Years ago by reliving a year of a womans life by holding her school yearbook from 2012. That would be cool to do that but the best you have ever seen was a forensic mage named Shelia who could match a persons possessions fairly reliably to its owner. Still a pretty good show.
It took a few sessions to unleash the Harry Potter within but getting the character to see the world through Magic colored glasses was well worth it. You may have a couple of episodes with some training wheels on to start out with. (Maybe help out a magic buddy who needs a friendly hand in astral space, etc. To get them started out on the right foot)
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Cattle prod.
Also a good approach, yes. Tends to leave some nasty burn marks, though.
I'm sure there's a way to combine both.
Shocky-Monkey. (http://www.illwillpress.com/tech2.html)
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With smaller groups, sometimes running a group NPC is helpful. Doesn't have to be a powerful one (you still want the players to be the stars of the game...), but it gives you someone in the group to be able to drop hints to your players. ("hey, your a technomancer! Go check out the marks link to see if he's got the paydata!")
I also agree with others in that it sounds like your players have culture shock, which is understandable considering just how vast shadowrun's culture/setting really is. Expect it to take some time for them to grow into their characters.
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One thing I've done in the past, especially with newer players, is use knowledge skills.
I've dealt with new players before who weren't very specialized in what they were doing. For instance, a Mage who would never think to go astral, or a Hacker who barely used the matrix. If the players were ever stuck or not coming up with an idea i'd ask for a Logic or Intuition (depending on character) + relevant knowledge skill.
As long as they roll well, I'd give them a hint such as "Your character suddenly remembers reading about the Astral Plane and how he can use Astral Projection to see through walls" etc or something to that nature. It gives the player an idea and doesn't feel like i'm forcing them.
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I alos make use of knowledge skills/rolls to especailly if the players are new to Shadowrun or to RPG's in general. Often times just trying to learn the rules can be overwhelming enough (especaily if there is a mountain of source books etc.) let alone learning a new world at the same time. So there are going to be things that they forget or don't use. I usally 'dumb down' things when I am talking to potentail new players. Things like you can amke a guy that can cast spells and summon things or you can make a ninja type guy or a computer hacker kind of person or like a soldier. That seems to help get them thinking about not only WHAT they want to play but also HOW to play what they decide to play. I do agree though with the astral space stuff since that tends to really get looked over especailly with new players. Of course I have had magicains go the other way with it though and seemed to ALWAYS be astral and forcing me to figure out ways to get around that.
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I alos make use of knowledge skills/rolls to especailly if the players are new to Shadowrun or to RPG's in general. Often times just trying to learn the rules can be overwhelming enough (especaily if there is a mountain of source books etc.) let alone learning a new world at the same time. So there are going to be things that they forget or don't use. I usally 'dumb down' things when I am talking to potentail new players. Things like you can amke a guy that can cast spells and summon things or you can make a ninja type guy or a computer hacker kind of person or like a soldier. That seems to help get them thinking about not only WHAT they want to play but also HOW to play what they decide to play. I do agree though with the astral space stuff since that tends to really get looked over especailly with new players. Of course I have had magicains go the other way with it though and seemed to ALWAYS be astral and forcing me to figure out ways to get around that.
Can someone say.... Mana walls? Or Guardian Spirits?
I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?
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I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?
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When you're astrally perceiving or projecting, everything looks faded and greyed out. Like you said, transparent. You can still see people moving and you can see everything that is going on in the real world but it lacks detail. Anything that is magic lights up on the astral plane, such as astral beings, dual natured beings, foci, sustained spells, etc. So yes, you can see through walls and most man made objects.
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Heh, I'm going to have to start looking inside boxes and buildings then. XD
I'm guessing it looks the same when Astral projecting.
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Isn't there a common sense quality you can take for newbies who would like some helpful hints on world background knowledge and the way things are typically done. As in...
GM "the strung out twitchy fellow with the gun tells you to put down your weapons walk over by the freezer and no one will get hurt. The leers he gives Hotelfia makes you wonder whether his obvious desire to pursue his next bout of substance abuse will win out over more immediate desires."
Characters - Hmm, sounds like a good plan, what could possibly go wrong. I even pull out drop my focus just in case he didn't realize that's technically an indirect sort of weapon.
GM - *Common Sense Slap Upside The Head* ahem - gentlemen... you seem to recall something about the times your in being full of somewhat dubious characters who's assurances of safety may not fully manifest in the course of future events. Much unlike the trustworthy, vacant eyed, needle track scratching, drug consumers of today's day and age.
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Thanks guys this is all really helpful advice and I've been reading it. I tried the having NPC's run with them in an earlier campaign which worked out ok, they seemed to kind of reject there help alot and refusedto contact them to ask for advice. I kinda overlooked knowledge skills in that manner, I let people use them to recall information they would know but I never thought of having them roll in a situation like that.
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Thanks guys this is all really helpful advice and I've been reading it. I tried the having NPC's run with them in an earlier campaign which worked out ok, they seemed to kind of reject there help alot and refusedto contact them to ask for advice. I kinda overlooked knowledge skills in that manner, I let people use them to recall information they would know but I never thought of having them roll in a situation like that.
No problem!
If you need anything else, feel free to get another thread going. I'm sure you'll find that the community is full of resourceful, smart and fun people who're genuinely interested in helping out (I know I have!).
Have fun Shadowrunning!
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This "Sheepishness" when it comes to conflicts is something I foresee being very very problematic.
I'd advise either sticking to very particularly non-violent sessions (I was gonna say ones with lots of carchases, but somebody might tell them to pull over.) or introducing a character that drives them to fight, or starts the fight before they can agree to surrender.
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In line with what Canti and some of the others are saying -
It sounds, indeed, like you need to maybe ease these guys into it. I realize you're running an intro adventure, but maybe the kiddie end of the pool is still too deep.
Our current group, for example, consists of experienced players, but due to the paralyzing number of options available in SR4, we ran several "Mock Battles" to learn the ropes and get a feel for what our characters can do. One of the players actually is running a guy made by the GM, because he was overwhelmed by the number of directions and choices in chargen...and he's been playing tabletop RPGs for ages.
With your group, I might either start with some small mock combat sessions to get a feel for the rules and their characters, or start the actual campaign off very slowly - their first encounter could be with some low level street toughs, rather than a set-piece battle. Their first Matrix experience could be in a non-combat, low pressure environment. Etc, etc.
Also be aware that one of the most important rules of GMing is the mantra of all storytellers: "Know Thy Audience."
Some people just vapor lock. My college room mate was a great guy, and we loved gaming with him (he never said much, but when he did, it was always hilarious) - but he was total crap in a crisis. At first I tried to force him into action - I even devised a trap involving a sign that read "Think Fast!" and a 20'x10'x10' falling block of granite. It didn't end well. :P Some people have weaknesses, and you have to play to their strengths. If they're not creative thinkers, maybe an in-party NPC can help prod them along without being so heavy handed as a GM. While some people (myself included) want to be the protagonists, some players just want to be the sidekick (or plucky comic relief).
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Maybe they simply are not interested. Perhaps pulling back and doing something like a Doc Wagon team or Corpsec, and narrowing the focus of what they have to do, might be in order. You can always transition to runner's later if they decide to break contact.
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Maybe you could try working the story to be a no thinking solution. Its not what they have to do but just doing it. They underground in the sewer meeting a contact, stinky pete, and people from a distance start sending the lead rain from one end of the tunnel. Pete runs in the opposite way screaming. Describe the bullets hitting all about, the loud sounds of gunfire and manic laughter, and ask them what they'd like to do? They should run and/or fight. Just chase them through the tunnels, by a giant direrat nest the size of a Wineabago, and eventually out after they have figured out what the shiny things in their holsters are made for. Rollercoasters are fun for the whole family when run this way.
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I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?
When you're astrally perceiving or projecting, everything looks faded and greyed out. Like you said, transparent. You can still see people moving and you can see everything that is going on in the real world but it lacks detail. Anything that is magic lights up on the astral plane, such as astral beings, dual natured beings, foci, sustained spells, etc. So yes, you can see through walls and most man made objects.
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Actually, Street Magic specifically says that you cannot see through walls. Even windows are described as opaque. This makes it so you can hide from a mage trying to cast direct spells on you.
This is covered on page 114 in the fourth paragraph under the subheading "Astral Visibility." It starts "Determining cover works the same way on astral..."
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Just a quick question, but do they actually want to play Shadowrun? I merely ask because I had a player once that turned up to a few sessions, and didn't really do much of anything - didn't want to fight, be part of the planning, anything at all game related. Turned out that he was just turning up because he wanted to hang out with his other friends.
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I'll repeat my previous suggestion: Shocky-Monkey. (http://www.illwillpress.com/tech2.html)
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I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?
When you're astrally perceiving or projecting, everything looks faded and greyed out. Like you said, transparent. You can still see people moving and you can see everything that is going on in the real world but it lacks detail. Anything that is magic lights up on the astral plane, such as astral beings, dual natured beings, foci, sustained spells, etc. So yes, you can see through walls and most man made objects.
Actually, Street Magic specifically says that you cannot see through walls. Even windows are described as opaque. This makes it so you can hide from a mage trying to cast direct spells on you.
This is covered on page 114 in the fourth paragraph under the subheading "Astral Visibility." It starts "Determining cover works the same way on astral..."
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>.> now why would that be when you can just walk through astral walls right? It also hinders astral sight quite a bit not being able to see there's something magical in the next room and having to have line of sight. o.O'
Though I only have the core book, so i don't know about street magic side.
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Just because something can be walked through doesn't imply you should be able to see through it. Think of a curtain of beads. Or even think of a room with no light. Sure you can walk through it, you just can't see through it.
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Just because something can be walked through doesn't imply you should be able to see through it. Think of a curtain of beads. Or even think of a room with no light. Sure you can walk through it, you just can't see through it.
I try to think of it as a wall of dense fog or unmoving smoke. Or whatever other shape the nonliving object is. Can pass through it unhindered but can't see what's on the other side.
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Just because something can be walked through doesn't imply you should be able to see through it. Think of a curtain of beads. Or even think of a room with no light. Sure you can walk through it, you just can't see through it.
I try to think of it as a wall of dense fog or unmoving smoke. Or whatever other shape the nonliving object is. Can pass through it unhindered but can't see what's on the other side.
Yeah well I think some of the pictures in the core book are a bit deceiving then because some of them looked see through I believe.
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SR4A p192 has a good picture. Someone viewing the astral. Obviously the person in the foreground who DOESN'T have an aura is the person doing the viewing. But you'll see that the walls are there. The bar too, see how the bartender's aura disappears behind it?
Anyhow, back to topic.
So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story. They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told." I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them. I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.
So anyhow, I'm planning a session where the J is going to tell them to dress up in suits, treat them to breakfast at some diner, tell them the job is a heist, then give them their code names for the run: Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Ms. Blue, and Mr. Pink. If they don't catch the hint and check to find out if the run is a set up I'm going to make it my goal to make them each burn an edge to survive. It's been almost 2 years of Shadowrunning, they should know to check the J's story out by now.
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So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story. They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told." I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them. I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.
There is actually some validity to their point of view.
I'm not suggesting that they trust Mr. Johnson...but they are getting paid to do a job. One of my characters has the Mercenary Creedo trait. On their current run, the Johnson lied to them...the Merc doesn't really care, as long as the payday is still good.
He'll watch his six, for sure, but the bottom one is - he took a job, he is going to finish it...and if the Johnson tries to screw him, it's go time.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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SR4A p192 has a good picture. Someone viewing the astral. Obviously the person in the foreground who DOESN'T have an aura is the person doing the viewing. But you'll see that the walls are there. The bar too, see how the bartender's aura disappears behind it?
Anyhow, back to topic.
So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story. They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told." I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them. I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.
So anyhow, I'm planning a session where the J is going to tell them to dress up in suits, treat them to breakfast at some diner, tell them the job is a heist, then give them their code names for the run: Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Ms. Blue, and Mr. Pink. If they don't catch the hint and check to find out if the run is a set up I'm going to make it my goal to make them each burn an edge to survive. It's been almost 2 years of Shadowrunning, they should know to check the J's story out by now.
If there is a specific lesson, like Johnsons lie, you want to teach your players I recommend doing it in game. Play it out. Maybe the Johnson gets caught and hands over the data on the runners for slack or he just doesn't like criminals in the know on his dirty dealings. They were useful but their useful ness has ended as their threat to me has risen, etc. Give the players some foreshadowing, Johnson got scooped up by corp security or contact mentions that no one really ever works for that Johnson very long before they have an accident. Then he sets a meeting and the doublecross ensues. If the Run crew gets scooped up and sweated to make sure they have no insurance against Johnson they may try to escape and have learned a important lesson.
I am a big proponet of playing out that sort of thing, I am very story driven and while they always remember the big wins its the hard lessons that make them better characters.
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Do these two players want to actually play a mage and a technomancer, or did it just seem like a good idea at the time? Because it sounds like they would actually be happier with a pair of straightforward street samurai, who could make the "just shoot things" tactic actually work.
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Sorry, havn't been on in a while I just moved into a dorm and I could not recieve internet for AWHILE. I don't have that exact group anymore because I moved away for college but interestingly enough one of the two players happens to go to college about 5 minutes from me so he will be playing again. As far as them not wanting to play I'm pretty sure they do especially because the one I'm near now asked me to play and start a campaign and the other one contacted me and asked me if he could play now I'm sure they are just having a hard time like people said here understanded the world and being creative. The technomancer character was extremely excited to be and has played a technomancer twice now, he really loves the concept of a technomancer and so do I but I think he could benefit from playing a simpler character for the time being, I may suggest that too him next time we play as he doesn't even know how the matrix works normally let alone using sprites and such. I've read all this stuff and I will take it into account next group I get I'm also going to try and get a bigger group (3-4 people) to relieve the duty of doing everything from just a few people. First mission.... Find players....
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SR4A p192 has a good picture. Someone viewing the astral. Obviously the person in the foreground who DOESN'T have an aura is the person doing the viewing. But you'll see that the walls are there. The bar too, see how the bartender's aura disappears behind it?
Anyhow, back to topic.
So, my players have a very hard time figuring out that they should to check up on their Johnson's story. They have an attitude like "Well, we're getting paid to do this, just shut up and do as we're told." I'm trying to get them out of this without having EVERY Johnson betraying them. I mean... they should have reasons at least to betray them.
So anyhow, I'm planning a session where the J is going to tell them to dress up in suits, treat them to breakfast at some diner, tell them the job is a heist, then give them their code names for the run: Mr. White, Mr. Blonde, Ms. Blue, and Mr. Pink. If they don't catch the hint and check to find out if the run is a set up I'm going to make it my goal to make them each burn an edge to survive. It's been almost 2 years of Shadowrunning, they should know to check the J's story out by now.
Yep I saw that.
Curiously how do you have your players "Check the J's Story" <.< do they do a google search? If anyone can explain in more detail it would be greatly appreciated.
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Yep I saw that.
Curiously how do you have your players "Check the J's Story" <.< do they do a google search? If anyone can explain in more detail it would be greatly appreciated.
Well, as of yet they haven't done anything to check up. Haven't looked up the names supplied on the matrix unless asked to. They don't talk to contacts that would have reason to know about the situation unless it's for the express purpose of getting the job DONE, never to find any background info. The face never uses his (usually) 2x dice pool to convince the J, the Fixer, or anyone else for that matter, to part with any info that isn't strictly necessary. And there has been no shortage of betrayals, dicking over, or lying on the Johnson's part.
At first I thought they just hated doing legwork of any sort so only did what was necessary, but they all have fairly significant legwork skills and just last session there was this exchange:
Player 1: "Man, I love doing legwork. Cause I ROCK at it."
Player 2: "I know right?"
I just tried not to facepalm thinking of all the opportunities they've passed up to get valuable intel. You can lead a horse to water....
So, I figure it's one of two things: 1) They just aren't thinking to do it, 2) They have a self imposed code of conduct that treats all jobs as on a "need to know basis". The first is easy to deal with, I just remind them with hints in game. The second, well... As a GM I'm not sure I should try to change that. If that is a value they have as a team, or a rep they are trying to build in the shadows as people who can be trusted not to expose a J, then I should let them have it. Won't mean that they might not have negative consequences from it, but I won't outright try to change their minds.
So, anyhow, my idea is to make the setup a bit obvious and see if they still don't check the run out to see if it scans. If they check it out, then they might just not be thinking to. If they talk about it but don't check it out then I've found the one set of values my team actually has.
Anyhow, as far as checking up on a J, there are lots of things you can do.
1) Matrix search. You'll need something to go on, name, photo, employer, etc and the more you start with the better. Assuming the person isn't important enough that they can afford to remain hidden, but not so important that they can't remain hidden (like a CEO, gang leader, major shareholder, Police Captain, etc).
2) Buy off the Fixer who set up the meet. Fixers are in it to make a buck and even if they don't know everything about the J, they should know enough to get started. Some or all of that info might be for sale. That said, they need to balance their reputation with making that buck, otherwise they're out of a job, six feet under, or worse. Depending on how important to the Fixer that rep is, it could be a pretty penny, 20 nuyen, tickets to the Seahawks game, a favor that turns into another run, or out of the question entirely. Also, keep in mind, if the fixer is willing to sell out another client to you, they'll likely sell YOU out to another client. This is why it's good to get a high loyalty score with fixers, but sometimes even that's not enough. Way of the world chummer.
Anyhow, knowing who the J is can be a huge help. A little covert surveillance can usually tell you if he's setting up a cleaning crew to take your team out when it's over, overhear a conversation that has clues to the REAL reason for the run, etc.
3) Contacts. Everyone should have some, faces should have an army. Make friends in all sorts of places. They're helpful with more then favors, they can provide info, rumors, confirm things you've heard elsewhere that didn't sound like chip truth.
4) Just hit the streets. Talk to groups that have reason to have some info on things. They might know about some detail that doesn't add up to something the J may have told you.
And of course, a little dishonesty is practically expected. If a few of the details don't mesh up it doesn't necessarily mean "Don't do the run". But it's smart to check it out in the chance the team might be being set up to take the fall.
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One thing you might try (it'll be tricky, but...) is for them to get two jobs at pretty much the same time that sorta force their hands. Two rivals seeking info on each other, as an example.
A darker option that'll take longer but which can be even more effective is to have them hired by a /real/ villain, and then be forced to recognize the consequences of not checking the person out. As one example, Mr. Johnson is one of those guys who's wife leaves with the kids, so he finds and kills them. Your team is hired to find them and keep Mr. Johnson updated as to their location. They get to witness the murders. To rub it in, guess who's either getting framed or betrayed (or both)? If they'd only done some basic legwork... (Note that there are some players for whom the result is to just shrug; it's just another job. For them the betrayal is the better teacher.)
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Sounds like some good tips there, though as the DM of most of the shadowrun sessions, I know my group mostly only does legwork on trying on probing security at whatever place they are going to hit. My group is more prone to getting into gun fights, because there's usually a decent amount of security. I don't blame them because I myself as a player would find it hard to get around some of my own security. xD
Had metal dectors on the first floor, and the sixth floor was hidden from normal view. One of the Awakened astral preceptioned the sixth floor and they figured that's where everything was. The man also managed to surface thoughts one of the employee's leaving the place for some information. (they obtained that the security people basically lived in the building) Also one of them went in invisible stalking a gaurd with a few lucky rolls and found out there was a mage.
Heh was like this.... guard walks up to a second elevator (he had gone up to the fifth floor and walked down some hallways to get to this floor. The guy talks a little bit with the guard at the elevator door, mentions something about their car getting messed up by a troll. (happened a little earlier with the group's troll getting ambushed) Then he says "you know the drill". (that's when the mage tells the awakened adept to run! (they guessed right that the person was going to astrally preceive and if he didn't get around the corner in time... xD)
Anyways the next night or so they hit it. They don't get past the metal detector <.< without an alarm going off so *shrugs*.
Anyways as i was going to say before that tangent, that I'm not sure I plan out all the details behind the Johnson wanting this done though I'm sure I could easily come up with a reason. I usually go for the general gist of an idea and go with it. (happens when you have most of your time eaten up by work, and free relax time at home eaten up by video games and said friends showing up during the week as well as DnD weekend. xD)
Anyways what type of bonus' would typically come out of this leg work? Any specific examples for me to work off of so i can encourage this? As well as any tips for nudging them to learn how to be more stealthy? xD Thanks. (I think we also need tips on how to lie your way in and out of a situation as a face but you know all good things in time)
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One thing you might try (it'll be tricky, but...) is for them to get two jobs at pretty much the same time that sorta force their hands. Two rivals seeking info on each other, as an example.
A darker option that'll take longer but which can be even more effective is to have them hired by a /real/ villain, and then be forced to recognize the consequences of not checking the person out. As one example, Mr. Johnson is one of those guys who's wife leaves with the kids, so he finds and kills them. Your team is hired to find them and keep Mr. Johnson updated as to their location. They get to witness the murders. To rub it in, guess who's either getting framed or betrayed (or both)? If they'd only done some basic legwork... (Note that there are some players for whom the result is to just shrug; it's just another job. For them the betrayal is the better teacher.)
Betrayal as in framing them? (heh I know some people who would just shrug at that, they'd want to go kill the johnson maybe but i'm sure they wouldn't mind if they got paid, but if they didn't i'm sure they'd go after him. XD)
An interesting idea, we'll see how it goes, if I do it. xD
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My current team's intel collection SOP:
1. Find someone who might know something.
2. Kidnap (also known as "v&nning")
3. Three-pronged Good Cop, Bad Cop, Mind-Reading Cop by Hobgoblin Merc (very Bad Cop), Dryad Face (ridonkulus Good Cop), and Fomori Mage (Analyze Truth/Mind Probe Cop).
4. If they identify anyone else who might know something, goto step 2. Otherwise, goto step 1.
5. Repeat as necessary.
I'm not going to say it's a great plan...but it does have a certain effectiveness. ;D The biggest problem, so far, is what do you do with the people after step 4? So far, we've been having the Merc Intimidate them half to death, then cut them loose. *Shrug* It works for the Mafia...why reinvent the wheel?
If you haven't guessed, we're not playing the whole "fighting the good fight" sort of team. We're more of the "I'm going to beat someone like a piņata until money comes out" variety.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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My current team's intel collection SOP:
1. Find someone who might know something.
2. Kidnap (also known as "v&nning")
3. Three-pronged Good Cop, Bad Cop, Mind-Reading Cop by Hobgoblin Merc (very Bad Cop), Dryad Face (ridonkulus Good Cop), and Fomori Mage (Analyze Truth/Mind Probe Cop).
4. If they identify anyone else who might know something, goto step 2. Otherwise, goto step 1.
5. Repeat as necessary.
I'm not going to say it's a great plan...but it does have a certain effectiveness. ;D The biggest problem, so far, is what do you do with the people after step 4? So far, we've been having the Merc Intimidate them half to death, then cut them loose. *Shrug* It works for the Mafia...why reinvent the wheel?
If you haven't guessed, we're not playing the whole "fighting the good fight" sort of team. We're more of the "I'm going to beat someone like a piņata until money comes out" variety.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Lol ironically we have a troll connected to the mafia.
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One thing you might want to try is not being afraid to give them some suggestions of things they could do, or reminders of options they have. Sometimes players have trouble understanding all the things they could do when facing a challenge.
A classic example is a locked warehouse with thugs inside. You might remind them that they can try climb up the building and find a way to sneak in, try to hack the warehouse's security, try knocking on the door and talking their way past the thugs, try bypassing the lock and sneaking inside, blow open the door and kill the guards.. or anything else they can surprise you with. Then give them a little bit to talk it over (Get a glass of water or something) then come back and ask what they do, and if they have any questions.
This gets them talking and introduces the idea that they can go at a task from a bunch of different angles.
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One thing you might want to try is not being afraid to give them some suggestions of things they could do, or reminders of options they have. Sometimes players have trouble understanding all the things they could do when facing a challenge.
A classic example is a locked warehouse with thugs inside. You might remind them that they can try climb up the building and find a way to sneak in, try to hack the warehouse's security, try knocking on the door and talking their way past the thugs, try bypassing the lock and sneaking inside, blow open the door and kill the guards.. or anything else they can surprise you with. Then give them a little bit to talk it over (Get a glass of water or something) then come back and ask what they do, and if they have any questions.
This gets them talking and introduces the idea that they can go at a task from a bunch of different angles.
Definately because the mentality is so different in this game. The climbing the building totally wouldn't have come up in my classic thinking from DnD. However it indeed gives a different angle.
Though I'm curious if anyone wants to field this question, how do you guys come up with floor plans for your warehouses and such? I mostly create it on the fly if it's necessary. I have a matt to draw it out but i hardly ever do, mostly go by imagination because there's no need to thus far in most of my missions.
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The simple thing to do is to draw a box, then put rows inside along with an office and bathroom. Remember that in any sort of modern warehouse there is going to be a forklift that dose the heavy lifting, a pile of spar pallets and loading doors for trucks to dock at, along with in most cases a basic security system. There will be vents on the roof and possibly skylights, less to make the place more attractive then to make it cheaper to work inside it when the sun's up.
In Shadowrun, the forklift might be a drone, the security system is likely a mesh of networked cameras with a comlink to manage them and store their recordings, probably in the small office. RFID scanners to clock workers in and out and track the goods stored inside.
The good thing about warehouses is that they tend to be really simple, in layout. In a pinch, you can always find some online.
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Nice I'll keep that in mind, and yeah most layout's have been rather simple in mine. They haven't broken into a complex building really yet so i've been good in that department, though if they infiltrate a building with 20 stories i'm curious how most of you GM's "fill" those levels. :P I'd have a hard time filling them in with different departments, probably because lack of knowledge of what goes into such a building. xD
Thanks for the warehouse tip however.
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Nice I'll keep that in mind, and yeah most layout's have been rather simple in mine. They haven't broken into a complex building really yet so i've been good in that department, though if they infiltrate a building with 20 stories i'm curious how most of you GM's "fill" those levels. :P I'd have a hard time filling them in with different departments, probably because lack of knowledge of what goes into such a building. xD
Thanks for the warehouse tip however.
One of the easy things you can do is use Extraterritory to your advantage in a pinch. Lets say I made a building with 30 floors and didn't want to plan all of the floors out. The players unexpectedly decide to go 12 floors down and take hostages or whatnot, something not predicted. Well, the entire building need not belong to one corporation, they could own/rent floors separately. Different floors of a building count as "Continuous and Contiguous", so each floor COULD have it's own corp with it's own law, guards, etc.
Don't want them going on other floors? Make them completely different companies on them. Most times a runner group will think twice about pissing off multiple corps on a single run.
It can also make things easier for the runners too, if they consider that just 4 floors up there could be a palm that they can grease to let them escape to, that the guards wouldn't be able to legally pursue.
The other method is copy and paste. Corps are efficient, they'll likely reuse a functional floor plan over and over on each floor unless there is a reason not to.
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Keep in mind that a lot of office buildings won't have one company own a whole floor. There may be a law office next to a dentist, beside a place that dose event planning for corporate moral building events, down the hall from the local Stuffer Shack Corporate office "No, we don't sell any food here.. why do people keep asking that?"
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A generic floor plan for a lot of the floors is fine - you see it all the time (well, at least here), and departments can span multiple floors. Some floors might have fewer offices in preference to boardrooms, and larger offices for executives. Don't forget perks that corps might offer - such as a gym, games rooms - some buildings might even have a pool. Carparks can take up a few floors. Dedicated security floors every 5 or 10 floors so that HTR teams can get where they need to be in a hurry. Is there any living amenities? If so, you can include a couple of levels of shopping, as well as restaurants, bars, and so forth. What exactly is it that the corp does? Maybe they have space where they test out their product, display it, and so forth (like a "trophy" room).
I could keep going, but I think you get the idea.
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A pool 20 stories off the ground. XD I like the idea of that. Though i'd be shocked a bit if i saw it in real life though I don't doubt it may have happened. Just odd thinking that way but i will definately take note of that. Using it the first time will most likely throw my players off.
Considering we live in Puyallup, not really a City, but we do live near Seattle I can draw from the area knowledge pretty well for street's and high ways and the like. (hell i was looking at the seattle book and new some of the places they had changed) xD
Anyways thanks!
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Look at the scene in judge dredd where they're descending to show the comedic fellow where his new living quarters will be. I think he waves at children playing in a pool. But in reality there are lots of high up pools. A lot incorporate the infinity pool style which makes it look like the pool just falls over the edge of the building.
This one is 55 stories up
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289194/Marina-Bay-Sands-resort-opens-Singapore.html
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At one stage in Brisbane (Australia) they were building a 70-odd floor building, and the pool was going to be somewhere in the lower 30 floors. Don't know if they ever did it. I just remember thinking I'd be awfully nervous being on the floor beneath the pool, especially if there was unexplained water droplets around...
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Pools are constructed pretty water tight to be honest. Short of an earthquake spiting the basin there's little chance of a leak from the pool. Now the filtration system for the pool, that's a different story.
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Pools are constructed pretty water tight to be honest. Short of an earthquake spiting the basin there's little chance of a leak from the pool. Now the filtration system for the pool, that's a different story.
I know, hence my concern if there were water droplets ;)
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I've been in a fancy hotel bar where the ceiling of the bar was the glass floor to the pool.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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That would make bikini "incidents" interesting. Which hotel?
I've been in a fancy hotel bar where the ceiling of the bar was the glass floor to the pool.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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That would make bikini "incidents" interesting. Which hotel?
I've been in a fancy hotel bar where the ceiling of the bar was the glass floor to the pool.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
no idea what that is but i find it funny it's mentioned in the topic titled "motivating players"