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Thoughts on motivating players.

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Kulthozuer

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« on: <08-18-11/2338:59> »
Ok so I've posted here before I am a relatively new DM as in I have DM'ed many games and I consider myself to be ok at it but i've never played Shadowrun with an experianced DM so the only help I can get is here. I have had some problems with my friends as players in the past in several RPG formats and have had to basicly kick some people out because they would intentionally ruin games if everything didn't go perfect for them. Now that I got together people I've had experiance with taking the game seriously I don't have that problem anymore however I am running into some new problems. I have thought about them and I'm not stupid when it comes to DM'ing but I was wondering if any of you who have had these problems have any advice that worked for you...

Situation: For my new group of players that started at 4 and became 2 before we started I decided to take it easy and run Food Fight 4.0, they have both played before but I felt they could use a review on some things. I had them both do homework (Read sections of the book prior to the game concering their character) So they would better their understanding of the world. The game went alot better than any I have ever run because they actually tried to play, but I ran into some problems that I had a hard time dealing with without severe DM interference which I like to be a very hands off DM as far as infuencing the characters. Not saying i've never railroaded anyone to a situation they needed to be in but I don't like to tell them what they should or can do and let them figure out creative ways with a very slight hand of advice.

Problem 1: My players are SUPER uncreative with all their plans. By that I mean we have a magician and a technomancer and the whole time all they did was shoot. They don't always understand the rules and I tell them constantly that its perfectly fine and they need only ask because the rules of SR4 can be complex but they dont ask or try to do anything. For example the technomancer not once tried to even use the matrix. Even when it was down to him losing his gun and the other player in grave peril he wouldn't use it. I asked him what he would like to do on his turn and he was like "I don't know theres nothing to do" and I basicly had to tell him to use the matrix because he couldn't come up with that himself. He also has read the chapter Wireless World about 2 times so it's not that he doesnt have an idea of what it is. The other character is sort of a face/magician and when prompted with talking to one of the people inside the shop attempting to hide he asked the person for their help. He was hesitant but he made the roll to convince him if he helps they could all escape. Then when the NPC asked him what he can do he didn't respond and just left.

Problem 2: They tend to be super sheepish as far as opposing anyone. When originally told to go by the freezers and drop their guns by Crank they both immediately did so and proceded to just wait and not move like they were told. I tried things such as the NPC's having dialogue over heard so inspire the to fight back or to have other NPC's in the store in fear suggest that if they dont do something there gonna kill us all and such. They eventually just picked up there guns and shot but when the NPC's fired back they dropped their guns and apologized and layed on the ground. I was confused on the point of them not even trying and asked them what they where going to do, they said its pointless because they can't win. Neither of them were too heavy on combat but they were both capable and I was having the Crank and Stooby fight with eachother and other things that opened up for them attacking them in surprise and give them all kinds of opportunities to take them 1 on 1 for example I had Stooby announce to Crank he was going to go check the back but like I stated before they were content on just giving up.

How it ended was I eventually had to basicly walk one through turning off the lights or setting off the alarm to cause a diversion and I had to have some major DM magic save the other one who just lied on his back and gave them his gun and they bothed escaped in the dark practically unopposed but I feel like they would have had a lot more fun if they had y'know done something besides give up and then magically escape.

Sorry for such a long post, I think alot about how I can solve these problems but there are alot of people on here who are so much better at DM'ing and last time I posted I got so much great help.

Thanks  :D

Fallen

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« Reply #1 on: <08-19-11/0028:17> »
Problem 1: My players are SUPER uncreative with all their plans. By that I mean we have a magician and a technomancer and the whole time all they did was shoot. They don't always understand the rules and I tell them constantly that its perfectly fine and they need only ask because the rules of SR4 can be complex but they dont ask or try to do anything.

Well hullo there!

Although I cannot relate to the entirety of your post and the concerns you have therein raised I can, however, relate to the bit I quoted above.

I've come across some situations wherein players old and new alike have been frustratingly "slow" as to come up with ideas on what to do.  To me, and in hindsight, it's mostly a situation where unfamiliarity with the game world is at the core of the problem.  Your players will need time to grow comfortable in their alter-egos' skin, and understand what the setting and game are about.  Until they do, I would highly recommend you take the lead in this respect and toss unto them a few pointers and cues -- you'll need to "teach" them how to Think Shadowrun.

What's super important when you GM is to minimize "downtime" when there's nothing going on.  It's up to you to keep up the flow of things and supplement enough material to help them moving forward (without necessarily solving everything for them, but give them pointers, adapt the situation to suit their needs (for now anyway)), even if a published piece of module doesn't necessarily hint that you should nor precisely how you can go about doing it.  It's a skill you learn through practice and trial and error.  ;)

Ways to do this include:

Being descriptive of the environment so that the players can see (and feel, and taste and smell (ew)) what's going on around their characters.  Giving them details here about things that may be important for them to pay attention to might be a good approach (later on, you'll want to try and not be too obvious with where at you want their focus to be on though!).

Creating situations where their characters can "see how it's done".  Now, I'm not at all a fan of NPCs that take the spotlight away from the players and that's not at all to what I'm referring to.  Rather, say, in places they go, and with people they meet, have someone in the background deal with a situation your players find problematic.  Like, a little side-story that's going on nearby that doesn't necessarily include them (and so, you can't make it terribly important, but it's a useful tool, I've found, to be demonstrative about how things can feasibly be tackled by characters peopling the game world).

A good way to give hints in-game is by creating a "support system" for the players.  Have their contacts preemptively contacting them, for example.  Asking small things from them to do, favors and the like, so you can help your players develop their SR skills before tackling a full-on scenario.

In time, I'm sure you'll find what works and doesn't work for you in this respect.  Don't be afraid to try things out and your players will likely take that as a lead to follow after.

Good luck and have fun!
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

CanRay

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« Reply #2 on: <08-19-11/0056:11> »
Cattle prod.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Fallen

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« Reply #3 on: <08-19-11/0120:24> »
Cattle prod.

Also a good approach, yes.  Tends to leave some nasty burn marks, though.

I'm sure there's a way to combine both.

*Riiing*Beeep*Squidaddle*BEEP*

Runner-X: "Yeah, hello?"

Fixer: "Hello, Shadow Bob.  It's Fixer McFixins'.  You know, sometimes when I'm in a rut, I like to double-check an area and then go and talk to the locals in the neighborhood and see if they might know anything about what's going on.  Oh, and I should mention I sent Sieger Zapfry to see you.  He should be there momentarily."

Runner-X: "Huh?  Wha-?  You callin' 'bout what again?"

Fixer: "Sieger Zapfry."

Runner-X: "Who?

Fixer: "Sieger..."

Sieger Zapfry: "CATTLE PROD!"

*Bbbbzzzzt--ZZZAAAaaaP[edited due to the graphic nature of events]!*

Runner-X: "YOOOOW -- Son of a b-!"

Fixer: "...Zapfry."
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

John Shull

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« Reply #4 on: <08-19-11/0821:06> »
I have had some issues when players who have been used to a character archetype switch over to another.  Shooter gets a new character and becomes a combat mage for example and he keeps going to his gun/katana instead of astral perception/spells/gun/katana.  What I did was feed them info they could act on that was unique to their skill sets. 

The Dwarf is wearing Hermetic magic symbols on his jacket and his large necklace looks like it could be a focus of the same tradition but you can't be sure unless you astrally perceive it. 

The Elf in the dark suit is chanting softly in Speithel and his hands rest on the downed trolls chest.  The troll suddenly rocks back and forth hard with the Elf and the trolls chest burns pull together like water flashed frozen.  The Elf is rattled as it looks like his spell has taken much out of him.

While waiting for your contact to show up for the meet you, you see the Vid over the bar is Maddox Mage Detective.  Your favorite SLIGHTLY exagerated Mage trid show.  This the episode where he solves a murder from 60 Years ago by reliving a year of a womans life by holding her school yearbook from 2012.  That would be cool to do that but the best you have ever seen was a forensic mage named Shelia who could match a persons possessions fairly reliably to its owner.  Still a pretty good show.

It took a few sessions to unleash the Harry Potter within but getting the character to see the world through Magic colored glasses was well worth it.  You may have a couple of episodes with some training wheels on to start out with.  (Maybe help out a magic buddy who needs a friendly hand in astral space, etc. To get them started out on the right foot)
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.  --Sun Tzu

CanRay

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« Reply #5 on: <08-19-11/0933:52> »
Cattle prod.
Also a good approach, yes.  Tends to leave some nasty burn marks, though.

I'm sure there's a way to combine both.
Shocky-Monkey.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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« Reply #6 on: <08-20-11/1948:11> »
With smaller groups, sometimes running a group NPC is helpful. Doesn't have to be a powerful one (you still want the players to be the stars of the game...), but it gives you someone in the group to be able to drop hints to your players. ("hey, your a technomancer! Go check out the marks link to see if he's got the paydata!")

I also agree with others in that it sounds like your players have culture shock, which is understandable considering just how vast shadowrun's culture/setting really is. Expect it to take some time for them to grow into their characters.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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XelosUchiha

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« Reply #7 on: <08-21-11/2321:38> »
One thing I've done in the past, especially with newer players, is use knowledge skills.
I've dealt with new players before who weren't very specialized in what they were doing. For instance, a Mage who would never think to go astral, or a Hacker who barely used the matrix. If the players were ever stuck or not coming up with an idea i'd ask for a Logic or Intuition (depending on character) + relevant knowledge skill.

As long as they roll well, I'd give them a hint such as "Your character suddenly remembers reading about the Astral Plane and how he can use Astral Projection to see through walls" etc or something to that nature. It gives the player an idea and doesn't feel like i'm forcing them.
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Ranger

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« Reply #8 on: <08-22-11/0004:46> »
I alos make use of knowledge skills/rolls to especailly if the players are new to Shadowrun or to RPG's in general.  Often times just trying to learn the rules can be overwhelming enough (especaily if there is a mountain of source books etc.) let alone learning a new world at the same time.  So there are going to be things that they forget or don't use.  I usally 'dumb down' things when I am talking to potentail new players.  Things like you can amke a guy that can cast spells and summon things or you can make a ninja type guy or a computer hacker kind of person or like a soldier.  That seems to help get them thinking about not only WHAT they want to play but also HOW to play what they decide to play.  I do agree though with the astral space stuff since that tends to really get looked over especailly with new players.  Of course I have had magicains go the other way with it though and seemed to ALWAYS be astral and forcing me to figure out ways to get around that.
Are you -sure- that's what happened?

Zilfer

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« Reply #9 on: <08-22-11/1312:40> »
I alos make use of knowledge skills/rolls to especailly if the players are new to Shadowrun or to RPG's in general.  Often times just trying to learn the rules can be overwhelming enough (especaily if there is a mountain of source books etc.) let alone learning a new world at the same time.  So there are going to be things that they forget or don't use.  I usally 'dumb down' things when I am talking to potentail new players.  Things like you can amke a guy that can cast spells and summon things or you can make a ninja type guy or a computer hacker kind of person or like a soldier.  That seems to help get them thinking about not only WHAT they want to play but also HOW to play what they decide to play.  I do agree though with the astral space stuff since that tends to really get looked over especailly with new players.  Of course I have had magicains go the other way with it though and seemed to ALWAYS be astral and forcing me to figure out ways to get around that.

Can someone say.... Mana walls? Or Guardian Spirits?

I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

XelosUchiha

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« Reply #10 on: <08-22-11/1400:26> »
I had a question on that however. Astral Perception allows you to see through walls, but can you only see living things through walls? or does everything become transparent?
[/quote]


When you're astrally perceiving or projecting, everything looks faded and greyed out. Like you said, transparent. You can still see people moving and you can see everything that is going on in the real world but it lacks detail. Anything that is magic lights up on the astral plane, such as astral beings, dual natured beings, foci, sustained spells, etc. So yes, you can see through walls and most man made objects.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #11 on: <08-22-11/1414:26> »
Heh, I'm going to have to start looking inside boxes and buildings then. XD

I'm guessing it looks the same when Astral projecting.
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

shion

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« Reply #12 on: <08-23-11/1605:36> »
Isn't there a common sense quality you can take for newbies who would like some helpful hints on world background knowledge and the way things are typically done.  As in...

GM "the strung out twitchy fellow with the gun tells you to put down your weapons walk over by the freezer and no one will get hurt.  The leers he gives Hotelfia makes you wonder whether his obvious desire to pursue his next bout of substance abuse will win out over more immediate desires."
Characters - Hmm, sounds like a good plan, what could possibly go wrong.  I even pull out drop my focus just in case he didn't realize that's technically an indirect sort of weapon.
GM - *Common Sense Slap Upside The Head*  ahem - gentlemen... you seem to recall something about the times your in being full of somewhat dubious characters who's assurances of safety may not fully manifest in the course of future events.  Much unlike the trustworthy, vacant eyed, needle track scratching, drug consumers of today's day and age.

Kulthozuer

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« Reply #13 on: <08-25-11/2033:19> »
Thanks guys this is all really helpful advice and I've been reading it. I tried the having NPC's run with them in an earlier campaign which worked out ok, they seemed to kind of reject there help alot and refusedto contact them to ask for advice. I kinda overlooked knowledge skills in that manner, I let people use them to recall information they would know but I never thought of having them roll in a situation like that.

Fallen

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« Reply #14 on: <08-25-11/2049:29> »
Thanks guys this is all really helpful advice and I've been reading it. I tried the having NPC's run with them in an earlier campaign which worked out ok, they seemed to kind of reject there help alot and refusedto contact them to ask for advice. I kinda overlooked knowledge skills in that manner, I let people use them to recall information they would know but I never thought of having them roll in a situation like that.

No problem!

If you need anything else, feel free to get another thread going.  I'm sure you'll find that the community is full of resourceful, smart and fun people who're genuinely interested in helping out (I know I have!).

Have fun Shadowrunning!
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

 

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