[JustLogan]

Ok after going over the 5th rules and looking at the limit, single attack action per phase, the ability to use initiative to dodge. I had a probably not original concept.
The idea a physical adept,  two gun, no other attack combat skills, no or low armor, crazy attack skills. I don't really know how practicable this is in 5th (vs attack rolls) but the idea is run into the open, then use almost every point of initiative then act absolute last go crazy (multi attack trying to even out dice pool and limit). I realize that this is severely limiting potential damage output (actions lost by using defenses) by the idea of stepping out of cover and taking all the fire and dancing out of the way of all the incoming attacks seems like such a nice concept that it's worth it.
So here are all my questions and concerns- this character has a narrow focus- dodge monkey-can you actually dodge that much if you put every point into it? Do you think this concept would bring enough to a party? In MMO terms, if I understand them correctly, I would play the role of the tank and draw aggro, but my goal would be to not take the damage while still drawing the attacks. I'm pretty clear on the stat layout but still very worried that one good GM roll would toast the character. So I guess I can't be too flimsy.
Anyway I'm sure some one can give me great breakdowns on why that tactic is terrible. I'm a little tied to it. I'm willing to sacrifice specifics to keep to the concept (bullet dodging, two guns) without death.
Now on to the more pressing issue- is there a way to put that narrow of a focus into a character concept? I know I can play a compelling character but I need a hook  setting wise. It's been a long time since I played SR. So I want a real character- it seems like this character by definition was made as a tool by some one.. I like the idea that he's a piece of the dark side of some one not "as evil" as the AAA's. but does anyone really think Tir doesn't have wet work teams?
So here can this character be useful in combat, not die, and be fun to roleplay?
As you can see I over think almost everything.. So can my number crunching fellows give me a shelf life on a dodge monkey? and can every one give me some RP comments on a trained from birth assassin who decided they didn't want to be a murder tool anymore? My main thoughts on concept are elf ripped away from family when he showed adept skills, indoctrinated to be a murder machine, rebelled, etc. So you have the youth elf yeah life, then the training and abuse, then the threats on the family to ensure compliance, an execution in front of my eyes to prove the point, an escape, rescue of the remaining family, putting them into hiding, now I run the shadows always looking for revenge, always looking for a way to guarantee the safety of my family. To do that I need allies, contacts, nuyen, power, and the most valuable asset in the world trust. I think I found it it the most unlikely of places, this rag tag group of lost undesirables, at first I was as sure that they would have as soon as fragged me as said hi, but these guys after a few runs they might take a bullet for me, I think, I hope. They know they could just turn me in, it would be what they could get from a single run. so one again tips?

[Insaniac99]

I will think on this before I offer suggestions, I know that I can get a starting character to 24 dice of attack, so the limits become the real factor, but that relies on having skills that you can then use improved ability to boost relatively cheaply.   You could do that with HtH combat using the Unarmed or Gymnastics skill, but ranged you only have the option of taking full defense, which means an unaugmented max of 17 dice (dwarf, Willpower 7, Reaction 5, intuition 5)  and augmenting those enough to affect dodge is very expensive in terms of nuyen and essence or power points.

You would definitely want to have some armor.  You don't want to go splat the moment someone gets lucky -- which WILL happen at some point, sooner or later.

[All4BigGuns]

...(dwarf, Willpower 7, Reaction 5, intuition 5)  and augmenting those enough to affect dodge is very expensive in terms of nuyen and essence or power points.

Actually, only one of those three (Reaction) can be augmented with anything other than the Increase Attribute spell.

[Slippery_Chicken]

By "low/no armor" do you mean actually not wearing any armor, or just having low damage resistance? Would an ordinary-looking jacket be reasonable? What about a helmet?

Adepts seem to have the most "dodge-monkey" potential out there, and the concept does have merit -Attack pools deal with accuracy limits, but defense pools don't. I'm thinking about recommending Extraordinary Attribute (Magic) just to squeeze out more power points.. 5 (Reaction) + 6 (Intuition) + 7 (Combat Sense lvl7)+ 3 (Improved Reflexes III) = 21 passive defense pool. Most enemies are going to have a hard time hitting that, but you'll want some Edge anyway for when you roll low or face a high-attack-pool opponent (which may be inevitable since most DMs won't feel like they're "challenging" you).

If you run, then attacks take a -2 against you. If you sprint, then it's a -4 (pg 162). Granted, you take a -2 to actions while running/sprinting too.

Priorities would probably look like this:

A | Skills        | 46/10 [so you aren't a complete waste of space outside combat]
B | Meta        | Elf (6)
C | ATT         |  16
D | Adept      |  Magic 2
E | Resources| 6k nuyen

Power Points: 3.5 (Improved Reflexes III) + 3.5 (Combat Sense VII) = 7PP

Karma: Improved Att: Magic (14), Ambidextrous (4). 20k nuyen (10)

Skills: Max Pistols (6), Specialization in whatever pistol type you use (1). Stealth (6). Perception (6). Gymnastics (6). Thrown (6) so you can chuck grenades. Find some things to do when bullets aren't flying, like tracking/navigation, and put some ranks in that. Maybe some more specializations too.

Equipment: Basic gear, weapons, low/squatter lifestyle, some crappy fake SINs. Maybe some sensory enhancements if you have the cash left over.

You might be able to pull this off; just remember that your DM will probably get pissed that most enemies can't touch you. Also, you take cumulative -1 to Defense for every attack you defend against since your last Action Phase (pg 189).  Consider swapping attributes and skill priorities if you feel like you need more attributes and less skills. Initiate whenever possible for more Power Points.

[GiraffeShaman]

A couple things are working against dodge monkeys in 5th edition. One, the dodge pool is fairly static because it's made up of attributes. It's damn hard to raise attributes due to Karma and time costs, and also maximums. Attack pools can keep going up because skill goes up to 12. Limits can be ignored with Edge and this is a good argument for having good Edge to start.

The other thing is if the GM wants to hit you, he will because of the -1 penalty per attacker shooting at you.

Combats tend to go on longer than they used to, so your main focus should be on making a character that effectively contributes to the team's effort over a several round combat. (As opposed to the old SR rule of kill first, kill fast)

The one thing you have going for you is that mooks tend to have low attack pools, but this can be countered by the -1 per attack defense pool modifier if the GM is piling on the mooks.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I'd be tempted to go mystake adept for full dodge money power.  You can layer combat sense adept power with combat sense sustaining focus and improved attribute intuition focus etc.  Its attribute heavy if you want to be a dodge monkey and be able to do anything in combat as you are looking at good agility, reaction, intuition and honestly willpower for the full defense action.

I'd go a attributes, B magic, C skills, D human, E resources(hey you wan pistols, an armor jacket and a fake sin its not much)

B  A   S  R  W   L   I      C  ess   Edge   Magic

3    5  2   6   5   2   4       4   6      3            6
30 Karma spent on getting PP up to 6
16 karma on nuyen and binding of a sustaining focus 4 improved attr intuition
4 karma on focused concentration, use reagents to boost limit on combat sense spell.
Spells.  Combat sense, improved attribute intuition, improved invisibility(get out of dodge spell), 4 more spoells, preps, or rituals.

Skills
Pistols 6(specialized in X)
Gymnastics 2(not for doge, just acrobatic flavor)
Spell Casting 6
Summoning 4
Perception 1
Ettiquete 2
4  counterspelling
4 assensing

adept powers improved init 3, combat sense 5

Flat dodge pool assuming 4 hits on combat sense and improved attribute intuition 26 dice, full defense 31 dice.  If you really want to go 2 weapon style, you'd need to save up for ambidex in play but its generally a bad option until you are much more bad ass at shooting than most char gen characters.  Still keep improving pistols, put a initiate grade or 2 into improved pistols, and .25 PP into attribute boost agility and  eventually you might be competent at it. 

Your main concern would be AoE attacks, a grenade will still end your day. 

[Crunch]

It's possible to get a defensive pool in the range of 19 Dice at character creation (6 Rea +5 Int + Improved Reflexes 3 + Combat Sense 5 ). That's not really high enough to be routinely hitting Accuracy limits (most professional firearms will be around 7 with smartlink), you also face the problem of what happens if you're unaware of the attacker. [It's possible to squeeze out a few more dice, but largely by making questionable choices like dumping Improved Reflexes for Attribute Boost Reaction 6 and an extra point of Combat Sense etc].

The other major issue is that while 19 dice of defense at chargen is impressive as heck it's a relatively static pool. Skill pools on the other hand will continue to rise, and as you start facing more and more skilled opponents that defense pool won't look as good.

That said having a good defense pool is a huge advantage for an Adept, I'm just not sure I'd bail out completely for it.

[Tacitus05]

Let's not forget  a full auto from a machine guy gives -9 to dodge pool. A decent one will have good recoil comp and you becoms a smear. We experienced that this weekend.

[Insaniac99]

Let's not forget  a full auto from a machine guy gives -9 to dodge pool. A decent one will have good recoil comp and you becoms a smear. We experienced that this weekend.

Makes me wonder what the most Dodge and armor you can fit in a starting character is.  Let's say the only purpose of the character is to look bg and soak bullets.  He carries a scary weapon, but can only hit the most basic people with it reliably.  How many dice in dodge and armor/body could he get?  He's still vulnerable to direct magic, but It might be an interesting thought puzzle. 

If you can get ~20 on regular defense rolls AND the ~30 armor I know it is possible to get, then you can dodge most mundane attacks that would be able to punch through your armor and soak those that can't.

[Crunch]

It's difficult to maximize both.

The most effective armor increases are cyberwear, notably the 12 points for cyber hands and feet (part of our wonderful Cyberarm rules, yay!) plus points for whichever direct armor mod you chose and Bone Lacing.

The most effective defense increases are adept based, notably Combat Sense and the cheap Reaction enhancement of Improved Reflexes.

[Slippery_Chicken]

Let's not forget  a full auto from a machine guy gives -9 to dodge pool. A decent one will have good recoil comp and you becoms a smear. We experienced that this weekend.

Makes me wonder what the most Dodge and armor you can fit in a starting character is.  Let's say the only purpose of the character is to look bg and soak bullets.  He carries a scary weapon, but can only hit the most basic people with it reliably.  How many dice in dodge and armor/body could he get?  He's still vulnerable to direct magic, but It might be an interesting thought puzzle. 

If you can get ~20 on regular defense rolls AND the ~30 armor I know it is possible to get, then you can dodge most mundane attacks that would be able to punch through your armor and soak those that can't.

I imagine this would look like a Troll (9 body +1 dermal) Adept (to achieve the defense), wearing the biggest armor he can get (12 [armor] + 2[helmet]) with a Riot Shield (+6). That gives him 30 soak. After chargen, he can buy full body armor (15) and full helmet (3) which brings him up to 34 soak.

This Troll would have the same PP loadout as my previous post (7 ranks in the defense power, 3 boost to Reaction from Improved Reflexes), Intuition 5 + Reaction (4 or 5? I don't remember). That already gives him ~19 defense dice. I bet we can get this higher. Cyberware would be an option if we can get >2 Defense per 1 Essence lost (and potentially platelet factory/pain editor if we have extra room for it).

As for magic, he might use Karma for the magic resistance trait, since we're probably using all PP for defense as it is. He hopefully won't need healing magic anyway, because of his ridiculous defense and soak.

Riot Shield takes up a hand, so he would likely want to use some 1-handed weapon like a Monofilament Whip or a machine pistol.

[Crunch]

At the point that you've gone for the 30 soak troll, you might be better served (from a sheer pagan min maxing perspective, if someone showed up at my table with this build it wouldn't be acceptable) to go ahead and add the Cyberfeet and hands, Bone Lacing and Orthoskin to get the soak rating up into the low to mid 40s. 

At that point you've burned enough essence that you're probably better served not being an adept and freeing up some priorities for attributes or resources.

[Belker]

*breaks out the manabolts and gas grenades*

 

[Insaniac99]

So the best way to judge I'm guessing is cumulative dice with Defense roll, damage resistance, and Magic resistance (which uses Willpower or Body and counter spelling, ne?)

So you would want

• a troll for the high body and natural defense,
• mystic adept for both dispelling and ability to buy Combat Sense (which is MUCH more efficient than Improved Reflexes {which can be bought up after character creation at some point or traded if we want to round out, but the point is what can you get})
• Some Cyber if it gets more than 2 dice per essence lost
• gas mask (with back up rating 6 respirator) and elemental and chemical resistance gear
• what else?

[Crunch]

Improved Reflexes becomes a little more efficient if you include having a high enough intiative to take full defense every turn as part of your defensive calculations (in additon to it's base utility). Additionally you can't have a higher level of Combat Sense than Magic, so at chargen you'll have points left over after maxing Combat sense anyway.

If all you're concerned about is raw defense Reaction Boost 6 is only 1.5 points and on a 6 magic character would give + 4 Reaction on an average roll (it would average slightly less than +4 because the aug max would throw out results over +4, but would still average more than the three points of Combat Sense) (which would essentially ONLY be useful for defense pool and driving tests and wouldn't stack with other Reaction Boosts).

Another note is that Trolls only come into the conversation if Soak is a question. There max Intuition is 5 which lowers the max defense pool by a die. Orks probably provide the best balance of the metatypes between soak and defense.