NEWS

[SR5] Incompatible augmentations - a cross reference matrix

  • 56 Replies
  • 27874 Views

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« on: <09-10-13/0320:45> »
Hoi

I plan to use this thread to compile a complete list of which magic / adept power / cyberware / bioware augmentation/enhancement/boost that stack - and how if they only stack in part - and what they are incompatible with.

I imagine there will be a lot of rule interpretations and word twisting, but hopefully we can get to some sort of consensus on the matter.

First a few definitions from the book so we are all on the same page.

What the book mean by MAXIMUM INITIATIVE DICE
"...remember that any enhancements or bonuses cannot take you past the maximum of 5D6 Initiative Dice...Edge may be used on this test to roll the maximum of 5D6 for a single Combat Turn...to a maximum of 5D6...and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6."

What the book mean by MAXIMUM AUGMENTATION BONUS
"when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4...but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap"

What the book mean by INCOMPATIBILITY p.421 Incompatibility
"When two items are incompatibleólike a shotgun and a laser sight, or wired reflexes and synaptic boostersóyou cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says itís incompatible and the other doesnít, theyíre incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time."

What the book mean by accessing cyberware and wireless ON p.451 Augmentation
"Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the ďmoving partsĒ are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active."

What the book mean by INITIATIVE p.159 Initiative
"Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice."

As usual the book use a lot of different word for the exact same thing which make it confusing when reading the text. They use words such as "increases", "augmentations", "enhancements" and "boosts" which might or might not mean the exact same thing (does a "boost" -that only increase the attribute dice pool but not physical limit- count as an "augmentation"?). They also use phrases like "other technological or magical", "any other form of enhancement" and "augmentations that" which also might or might not mean the exact same thing (can an augmentation come from another source than technological or magical?)


BODY related

Cyberware
Bone lacing Bone lacing is incompatible with other augmentations that add to or alter your bones (such as bone density augmentation).
Bone density augmentation Bone density augmentation is incompatible with other augmentations to the bones, including bone lacing cyberware.
Bioware
Suprathyroid gland -
Spells
Increase Body Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Oxygenate -
Adept power
Attribute Boost Body - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Body - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Rapid Healing -
Drugs
Kamikaze -


AGILITY related

Cyberware
Muscle replacement It cannot be combined with other augmentations to the muscles, including muscle augmentation or muscle toner bioware.
Cyberlimbs Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings...These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, not other augmentations.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Muscle toner This bioware is incompatible with augmentations that increase Agility, including the muscle replacements cyberware.
Suprathyroid gland -
Spells
Increase Agility Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Attribute Boost Agility - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Agility - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Light body -
Drugs
Kamikaze -


REACTION related

Cyberware
Reaction enhancers Reaction enhancers are incompatible with all other enhancements to Reaction, including wired reflexes. Wireless: Reaction enhancers are compatible with a wireless wired reflexes system, and the total bonus Reaction from the two augmentations can be above +4 if both systems have wireless activated.
Wired reflexes Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative. Wireless: The system is compatible with wireless reaction enhancers, and the total Reaction bonus from both systems can be above +4 if both systems have wireless active.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Suprathyroid gland -
Synaptic booster The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.
Spells
Increase Reaction Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Attribute Boost Reaction - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Reaction - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Improved reflexes -
Drugs
Cram -
Jazz -
Novacoke -


STRENGTH related

Cyberware
Muscle replacement It cannot be combined with other augmentations to the muscles, including muscle augmentation or muscle toner bioware.
Cyberlimbs Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings...These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, not other augmentations.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Muscle augmentation This bioware is incompatible with augmentations that increase Strength, including the muscle replacements cyberware.
Suprathyroid gland -
Spells
Increase Strength Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Attribute Boost Strength - Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Improved physical attribute Strength - This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.
Drugs
Kamikaze -
Nitro -


WILLPOWER related

Cyberware
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Pain editor -
Spells
Increase Willpower Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Deepweed -
Kamikaze -
Nitro -
Zen -


LOGIC related

Cyberware
Bioware
Cerebral booster -
Spells
Increase Logic Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Psyche -


INTUITION related

Cyberware
Bioware
Spells
Increase Intuition Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Psyche -

CHARISMA related

Cyberware
Bioware
Tailored pheromones only when the person youíre using them on is within a comfortable conversation rangeóif they canít smell you, the pheromones donít work.
Spells
Increase Charisma Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time. The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the targetís augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Adept power
Drugs
Novacoke -


INITIATIVE related

Cyberware
Reaction enhancers -
Wired reflexes Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative. Wireless The system is compatible with wireless reaction enhancers, and the total Reaction bonus from both systems can be above +4 if both systems have wireless active.
Bioware
Adrenaline pump -
Suprathyroid gland -
Synaptic booster The synaptic booster cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.
Spells
Increase ReflexesA character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.
Increase Reaction Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.
Increase Intuition Each Attribute can only be affected by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.
Adept power
Improved physical attribute Reaction -
Improved reflexes the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative... to a maximum of 5D6.
Adrenaline boost -
Drugs
Cram -
Jazz -
Kamikaze -
« Last Edit: <09-17-13/1118:00> by Xenon »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« Reply #1 on: <09-10-13/0321:04> »
There are seven ways of getting initiative dice. Spell (Increase Reflexes), Adept power (Improved Reflexes), Cyberware (Wired Reflexes), Bioware (Synaptic Boosters), drugs (Cram, Jazz and Kamikaze), Astral (Astral Projection) and Matrix (cold-sim VR and hot-sim VR).

Cold-sim VR give you +3d6 initiative dice (and hot-sim VR give you +4d6 initiative dice) instead of your [physical] +1d6 initiative dice. It does not seem to be an enhancement of +2d6 (or +3d6) to your existing +1d6 but rather a replacement of your [physical] initiative dice with your matrix initiative dice. In a similar manner Cold-sim replace your reaction attribute with your current Data Processing attribute for the purpose of calculating your Initiative Attribute.

Enhancements to initiative dice is "meat" or AR initiative dice and not astral or VR matrix initiative dice. You can still enhance astral and VR initiative but only with boosts to intuition.


Spells, such as Increase [attribute] and Increase Reflexes are compatible with everything that does not explicit state it is incompatible with the enhancement. They are also incompatible with another application of the same spell. 8 hits can potentially give you the maximum total of 5d6. The spell is also compatible with drugs that grant initiative dice; such as Cram, Jazz and Kamikaze.

Improved reflexes adept power is compatible with other reaction enhancements that does not explicit state it is incompatible with reaction enhancements. You can get up to +3d6 bonus initiative dice from this ability. But Improved reflexes is incompatible with magical or technological increases to initiative (but that might or might not mean it is compatible with drugs - which if it is compatible would let you reach the maximum total of 5d6). I read this as it is incompatible with reaction enhancements (and intuition) for the purpose of calculating the initiative attribute which is part of initiative (which also means it is incompatible with enhancements to initiative dice and initiative score which are the other two parts of initiative according to the definition of initiative), but compatible with reaction enhancements for the purpose of calculating reaction dice pools such as pilot skills and reaction+intuition defense tests.

Wired reflexes cyberware is incompatible with all other reaction and initiative enhancements except reaction enhancers if both are wireless on. This is also the only enhancement combination in the book that let you break the max +4 maximum augmentation bonus. It is compatible with enhancements to intuition for the purpose of calculating your perception pool and reaction+intuition defense tests, but incompatible when it comes to calculating the initiative attribute which is part of initiative.

Synaptic boosters bioware is incompatible with all other reaction and initiative enhancements.
« Last Edit: <11-04-13/0833:44> by Xenon »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« Reply #2 on: <09-10-13/0321:13> »
reserved

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« Reply #3 on: <09-10-13/0611:47> »
What Initiative is is straight forward, yes. There is however a debate on which of the four different terms are meant when Augmentations talk about being incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, and whether boosts to your Attributes are incompatible with boosts directly to Initiative. You are fully aware of these debates and how often things were written badly, so please don't pretend otherwise. It is one thing to have a clear opinion, it is an entirely different thing to pretend there is no such controversion.

One problem is that when an Augmentation says it's incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, it's unclear what they exactly mean with Initiative. It could be Initiative Dice, Initiative Attribute, multiple combined, who knows? They might just be playing fast and loose there.

For example, if you have Reaction Enhancers 3 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits active, what happens with your stats and your Initiative score? If you have Synaptic Boosters 2 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits, do you get +2 Rea, +4 Int and thus +6+2d6 Initiative, would you only have +2 rea and +2+2d6 Initiative, or would you have R+2, I+4 and +4+2d6 Initiative? Or another combination? Which do the rules mean right now? Which one is intended?

And what exactly happens with Increased Reflexes 8 + Synaptic Boosters 3? Do you still have your +3 Reaction? If you use your +3 Reaction, do you have +3+3d6 Initiative, +8+4d6 Initiative, +11+4d6 Initiative?

Perhaps a new topic where both sides start fresh and post clearly what they think and what the complications are might be a good idea.

- - -

My personal stance, by the way, is that they simply mean not compatible with other sources of Initiative dice, since the attributes only indirectly impact Initiative. I also think Initiative Score is a different matter and as such Adrenaline Boost is compatible. This seems plausible to me since they didn't even mention it wouldn't work well with Improved Reflexes. If a clash was intended between 2 Adept Powers, I would suspect they'd have put some note there.

On the other hand I believe Adrenaline Boost should be limited to 1 use per Combat Turn.


One problem is that when an Augmentation says it's incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, it's unclear what they exactly mean with Initiative.
If they write Initiative I have no reason to believe that they actually mean something else than Initiative.

Initiative is defined at page 159 as:
"Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice."

So according to RAW, when it say incompatible with enhancements to initiative it mean it is incompatible with enhancements to Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.

For example, if you have Reaction Enhancers 3 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits active, what happens with your stats and your Initiative score?
Reaction Enhancers are compatible with enhancements to initiative, only incompatible to enhancements to reaction. Increase Intuition is only incompatible with other applications of the same spell. Reaction will increase by 3, intuition will be increased by 4 and the initiative attribute is increased by 7. The effects stack since they are compatible and the initiative attribute is not a mental attribute nor a physical attribute which mean it does not rule under the maximum augmentation bonus of +4.

If you have Synaptic Boosters 2 and Increase Intuition with 4 hits.
Synaptic Boosters are incompatible with enhancements to reaction and initiative. Increase Intuition is only incompatible with other applications of the same spell. Reaction will increase by 2 for the purpose of taking a pilot test. Intuition will increase with 4 for the purpose of taking a perception test. Defense tests will get a bonus of 6 dice. For rolling initiative the player will have to select between Synaptic Boosters and the Intuition spell (according to the definition about incompatibility at p.421). In this case it mean you don't get +4 Initiative from the intuition spell as it is not compatible with the [stronger] +2d6+2 initiative you would get from synaptic boosters. However, if you are in hot-sim VR then you would only benefit +1d6 from synaptic boosters before you hit the maximum initiative dice of 5d6 and initiative attribute is calculated from data processing (instead of reaction) + intuition. In this case you would get +4 from the intuition spell instead.

And what exactly happens with Increased Reflexes 8 + Synaptic Boosters 3?
Increase Reflexes are compatible with everything except the same spell. Synaptic Boosters are not compatible with enhancements to initiative and reaction. According to "p.421 Incompatibility" both of them are incompatible with each other if one is. The same rule also state that you have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.

Reaction will increase by 3 from synaptic boosters for the purpose of taking a pilot test. Defense tests will increase by 3 from synaptic boosters. For the purpose of initiative you would get +4d6+4 initiative from the increased reflexes spell since this is stronger than +3d6+3 initiative that you would get from synaptic boosters. They are incompatible and thus enhancements to initiative does not stack.

This is all based on my interpretation on the RAW definition of Initiative (p.159) and the RAW definition of Incompatibility (p.421).

Perhaps a new topic where both sides start fresh and post clearly what they think and what the complications are might be a good idea.
Your bidding is my command Michael :)

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0


edit: fixed a ton of typos
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/0800:55> by Xenon »

martinchaen

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #4 on: <09-10-13/1027:02> »
My problem with "Initiative" being a blanket term and "incompatibility" extending across all possible enhancements is this:
A 10 nuyen piece of gear (Cram, +1 REA and +1d6 initiative, avail 2R, 10 nuyen per dose, can be used for several weeks straight without need for addiction test) just invalidated a 39k cyberware augmentation (Wired Reflexes Rating 1) or a 95k bioware augmentation (Synaptic Boosters Rating 1).

Basically, the ganger my NPC is fighting can take a relatively cheap, available drug and be faster than my vatjob PC? Come on, that's ridiculous... To me, there's no reason why the two shouldn't stack, and that's how we've always played it in my current group.

To my mind, the 'ware incompatibilities were written with other 'ware in mind, not "ALL" sources of enhancements.

The counterargument to the above, if I'm playing my own devil's advocate, is the strong base in the fluff for incompatibility between magic and technology. A mage casting Increased Reflexes on a cybered up street sam would be a classical example where both fluff and rules could provide a good argument for why the two doesn't stack.

However, as a count-counterargument, I've always seen drugs and technology as similar, and so would rule that the effects of either stack with each other, up to the maximum +4 to an attribute (and +5D6 initiative dice) in SR5. Thus, a character could get Synaptic Boosters R3 and use a dose of Cram for the +3d6 and +1d6 enhancements. Otherwise, there's no way for a character to ever get to +4d6 initiative dice using technological means.

Slightly off-topic:
What's with the slight bias against cyberlimbs only ever being able to provide +3 augmentation? It seems like it's impossible to augment a cyberlimb to the same level as a "natural" augmentation like Muscle Toner Rating 4, despite the similarities in cost (cyberlimbs easily being more expensive in both nuyen and essence if all four limbs are replaced). Am I reading something wrong?

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #5 on: <09-10-13/1106:59> »
My opinion about Initiative is simple: page 52 describes the [Initiative Attribute], which is Reaction + Intuition. When Improved Reflexes, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters say they increase your Reaction, and this also affects Initiative, they are talking about the [Initiative Attribute]. Therefore, when they say in the next sentence that they're incompatible with "other technological or magical increases to Initiative", "augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative", or "any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement", they are still talking about the [Initiative Attribute]. Therefore, Adrenaline Boost, which gives a direct bonus to your [Initiative Score], is compatible with all of them (although it is a very OP power as currently described and they should either restrict it to once per combat turn, or make the drain add up pre-soak if you use it multiple times in the same combat turn, since you could otherwise give yourself 20+ IPs in one combat turn if you're undamaged with 0 chance of death due to the Stun overflow rules).



As for drugs, I think it depends: Cram and Jazz increase your Reaction (and therefore the [Initiative Attribute]), so it depends on the exact phrasing of the augmentation/power (Improved Reflexes depends on whether drugs count as "technological increases", Wired Reflexes depends on whether drugs count as "augmentations", Synaptic Boosters clearly state it's incompatible), but Kamikaze, which doesn't affect Reaction or Intuition, and only gives you bonus [Initiative Dice], should combine with all of them (though keeping in mind that the highest amount of [Initiative Dice] is 5D6).

Crunch

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2268
« Reply #6 on: <09-10-13/1117:31> »
Cyberlimbs are currently (according to Aaron with all the caveats that brings) not governed by the Augmented macimum and thus are THE choice if you want a natural Agility 1 character with a functional Agility of 9. I'm hoping that's not the final call coming out of the Errata. Also Cyberlimbs provide a great benefit to wounds and armor and have other tricks up their sleeve so to speak.

As for Cram. One it's an addictive drug, with all of those drawbacks. Per the text Cram comes with Jitteriness, Paranoia and Irrational Outbursts as side effects. That's non trivial. Two, the Wired Reflexes character will always have the edge if he initiates combat (as the Cram user will then have to take his Cram) and has the option of evading and coming back after the drug has come back. Also Cram can be taken away/confiscated etc.

I'm not going to wade back into this argument except to say that p 159 is pretty clear that Initiative is an overarching concept that includes Initiative Attribute and Initiative Score.  If you go check the Augmented Adept in chargen the topic has been pretty thoroughly hashed over.

Slipped by ZeConster.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« Reply #7 on: <09-10-13/1128:53> »
Interesting.

martinchaen, i am pretty sure that  "cannot be combined with any other form of reaction or initiative enhancement" include spells and drugs as well - not just wired reflexes and reaction enhancement.

ZeConster, the three sentences "other technological or magical increases to Initiative", "augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative" and "any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement"

...can very well mean just what it say "initiative". Initiative attribute is after all, together with initiative score and initiative dice, part of Initiative. If you increase reaction you increase initiative attribute and initiative attribute is part of initiative.

They could have written incompatible with enhancements to initiative attribute, initiative dice and initiative score... but incompatible with initiative mean the same thing (and is shorter to type).

If the intent was that wired reflexes should be incompatible with other enhancements to initiative score, initiative attribute and initiative dice they could write that it is incompatible with initiative. They did.

If they only meant that is incompatible with enhancements to the initiative attribute (and that it would stack with other enhancements to initiative dice and initiative score) they would need to explicit write initiative attribute. They didn't.

if they only meant that it is incompatible with reaction for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute but compatible with other enhancements to the initiative attribute (such as enhancements to intuition) then they would only need to write that it is incompatible with enhancements to reaction. They didn't.

If they  -in addition to being incompatible with enhancements to initiative attribute, initiative score and initiative dice- want the enhancement to be incompatible when using reaction for the purpose of calculating the pilot pool or the pool for taking a defense test; then they also explicit need to write that the enhancement is incompatible with enhancements to reaction (in addition to enhancements to initiative). They did.


ZeConster, do you think there is a difference between boost, enhancement and augmentation?
And if so, what would the difference be?



Crunch, yes i too think that the definition of initiative (which is on p.159) is clear and when the book talk about initiative it is this definition they mean when they type initiative.
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/1140:03> by Xenon »

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #8 on: <09-10-13/1143:07> »
the description explicit state Initiative (which by RAW is defined on p.159 as "Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.") I don't see how you can read it as Initiative Attribute.
Because "Initiative" can also refer to the [Initiative Attribute] (determined by adding your Reaction and Intuition attribute ratings), which is described on page 52, and like I said, when something says it boosts your "Reaction", and says it therefore also boosts your "Initiative", the Reaction bit means it's talking about the [Initiative Attribute], not the [broader concept of "Initiative"]. And I refuse to believe that they'd use "Initiative" in two consecutive sentences, and mean the [Initiative Attribute] in the first sentence, but the [broader concept of "Initiative"] in the second sentence.
Similarly, when the Increase Reflexes spell (which is compatible with anything that doesn't say it's incompatible with it, but that's not important right now) says it "adds +1 to the target's Initiative", it's talking about the [Initiative Attribute], since you can't have a +1 to a concept.



EDIT:
ZeConster, do you think there is a difference between boost, enhancement and augmentation?
And if so, what would the difference be?
I do not know, and I have 284 reasons to not care:
  • "boost" occurs 73 times in the book.
  • "enhancement" occurs 106 times in the book.
  • "augmentation" occurs 103 times in the book.
  • "Augmentation" is already something which can mean multiple things (remember the debate about whether spells and Adept powers were restricted by the "augmentation bonus" cap of +4?).
  • I already looked up every use of a single term in the book once ("Initiative"), and it was a colossal waste of my time then too.
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/1204:48> by ZeConster »

Crunch

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2268
« Reply #9 on: <09-10-13/1245:14> »
Why would it be Initiative Attribute rather than Initiative Score in the Increased Reflexes spell Ze? It doesn't really matter since both are components of the general Initiative described on 159, but I'm curious as to why you read that as Initiative Attributr rather than score?

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #10 on: <09-10-13/1304:29> »
Why would it be Initiative Attribute rather than Initiative Score in the Increased Reflexes spell Ze? It doesn't really matter since both are components of the general Initiative described on 159, but I'm curious as to why you read that as Initiative Attributr rather than score?
Why would they use "Initiative" to refer to your [Initiative Score] in that place when "Initiative score" occurs 149 times in the book?

Crunch

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2268
« Reply #11 on: <09-10-13/1320:06> »
In my reading it's just saying Initiative, in the p 159 sense of the word. Remember that since I think that Initiative is a more inclusive concept I don't actually need to know whether Increased Reflexes is adding to score or attribute because it's adding to initiative and at the end of the day either case would have the same result.

However, in your reading in which there is an important distinction between Intiative Score and Intiative Attribute in stacking terms, how are we to determine to which they are referring in the case of Increased Reflexes where nothing in the text refers to either Intiative Score or Initiative Attribute?

Initiative Attribute occurs elsewhere in the book as well, so I'm not sure what you think the Find Replace Word count is adding to your argument. Again in my reading if they say Initiative they mean Initiative, which they have helpfully defined for us on page 159.
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/1439:30> by Crunch »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« Reply #12 on: <09-10-13/1435:11> »
Because "Initiative" can also refer to the [Initiative Attribute]
Initiative is basically one or more dice plus a number (and the third part is initiative score which you get when you do an initiative test which involve rolling the dice and adding the number). You can add +1d6+2 to your initiative. You can also add +1d6 to your initiative dice (which is part of your initiative) and after that you can also add +2 to your initiative attribute (which is part of your initiative). You can remove 1d6+3 from your initiative during a combat turn (for example if you exit from astral projection) and you can also remove 1d6+3 from your initiative score (which is part of your initiative). I am sure the book have several examples where they add add or remove a number to initiative instead of initiative attribute or initiative score. There is no practical difference. Initiative attribute is still just one part of initiative. So are initiative score and initiative dice.

If an enhancement is incompatible with other enhancements to initiative then you can't use it to stack enhancements that increase initiative (it simply does not matter if it only increase the initiative attribute, the initiative dice, the initiative score or any combination of the three - they are all initiative enhancements and they are all part of the initiative).
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/1514:25> by Xenon »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6430
« Reply #13 on: <09-10-13/1453:58> »
...Increase Reflexes spell (which is compatible with anything that doesn't say it's incompatible with it
Yes

Increase Reflexes is compatible with the following (for the purpose of calculating initiative):
Reaction enhancers
Adrenaline pump
Suprathyroid gland
Increase Reaction
Increase Intuition
Attribute Boost Reaction
Improved physical attribute Reaction
Adrenaline boost
Cram
Jazz
Kamikaze


Increase Reflexes is incompatible with the following (for the purpose of calculating initiative):
Wired reflexes
Synaptic booster
Another Increase Reflexes spell
Improved reflexes

martinchaen

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #14 on: <09-10-13/1551:14> »
For me, this all boils down to one thing:
"Opinion". Ultimately, the rules as written are open to interpretation, and so each GM has to decide for themselves until official errata comes out (and even then, obviously, can choose to ignore it).

For my own sake, if I'm GMing an SR5 game I'll be making the minimum ruling of "all effects stack up to augmented max (apart from the case of Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers, which can exceed the limit if wirelessly enabled), except where gear is specifically mentioned (i.e. no Muscle Replacement cyberware with muscle toner, or similar)".

There's just too much ambiguity in the rules for my sake, and instead of spending countless hours debating the nuances I'd just allow players to stack up on stuff, as long as they remember that what applies to a player applies to an NPC.


Crunch: As for Cram being addictive, the rules on addiction tests means you can pretty much take Cram (with it's LOW addiction rating of only 4) for 4 weeks straight without requiring a test, and stay off it for the next two weeks and take a test at threshold 1, or stay off it for the next three weeks and not need a test at all, depending on how the rules for when the test it taken is interpreted. I'd hardly call that highly addictive, unlike Kamikaze, which certainly would mess you up, potentially after even a single dose.

The other disadvantages you list are all role played, and does not necessarily affect game mechanics (unless you have a fairly strict GM); I have no problem playing a slightly hyper character at all, especially considering the cost compared to 'ware. Hell, it's barely even restricted at 2R, and a good license for drugs or cram specifically would still cost a LOT less than 'ware, so I wouldn't be overly concerned with the possibility of confiscation.