[Crunch]

There's actually not much ambiguity unless you choose to ignore the definition on p 159. It's only at the point that you've accepted that Initiative is not necessarily initiative that things become vague and complex.

And yeah if you don't care about roleplaying penalties or the listed non mechanical effects Cram's weaknesses are reduced to crashing x hours later and having to have advance warning to take the drug (or burn your first complex action to grab and take a puffer). I'd certainly - as a GM - argue that being jittery and fidgety would result in a penalty to stealth and fine manipulation actions like lockpicking or hardware, and certainly from the description composure tests would be taking penalties as well, but you're right that there's not a mechanical if x then y penalty to such things.

[JackVII]

Actually, Cram is kind of useless unless you take it in advance of combat. It's onset time is 10 minutes.

[Crunch]

Actually, Cram is kind of useless unless you take it in advance of combat. It's onset time is 10 minutes.

Good catch.

[JackVII]

It's also a Psychological addiction which proably sucks for combat dudes given their likely attribute prioritization. I just built a combat drug guy and he's pretty much Kamikaze all the way given that it is the only combat oriented Physiological drug (plus the immediate onset time is bitchin').

[martinchaen]

Cram lasts 12-Body hours. How much advance warning do you need that you're going into combat. If you're surprised, then sure, it'll be an issue, but that might be the case for anybody (Wired Reflexes is a simple action to activate, spells require a simple or complex action, and even adept powers have to be turned on; the only constant that has no on/off switch is synaptic boosters).

And if you're creating a combat monster that doesn't have high Willpower, you're setting yourself up for failure, because it's one of the few stats that can't be improved much by 'ware. Resisting a Threshold (1) test every 6 weeks does not an addict make, when you're rolling 8-10 dice, if you even need to roll given the above "schedule" mentioned (11-Addiction Rating 4, equals 7 weeks; use for several weeks, then don't. Problem solved. Kamikaze, on the other hand, is guaranteed one (or even more) test(s) from just a single dose, due to the high AR). Low willpower = easily dispatched by fear or any type of mind influencing spell. It doesn't matter if you can take 30 points of damage, if all it takes to take you out of the fight is a single "Control Actions" spell from the opposing mage, to my mind.

Crunch; the problem as I see it is that you and I obviously disagree on what the definition on p159 entails; while the definition of "initiative" is clear, the effects 'ware has on said definition is not, because of ambiguous use of language.

Does it really seem right to you that the spell Increased Reflexes stack with some 'ware and drugs, but not others? Or that certain pieces of 'ware arbitrarily can or cannot interact with each other? If so, my hat's off to you. I prefer a simpler approach, where players are less restricted by seemingly arbitrary rules (from my point of view).

And again, you judging that the description of being jittery equates to a potential penalty for sneaking test is just that; an opinion. It is NOT enforced by the rules, but it's your game so you're free to do what you want. This is especially true to me considering there is obviously room for interpreting the rules, given the many discussions on this and similar subjects.

It's also a Psychological addiction which proably sucks for combat dudes given their likely attribute prioritization. I just built a combat drug guy and he's pretty much Kamikaze all the way given that it is the only combat oriented Physiological drug (plus the immediate onset time is bitchin').

I hope your Body is exceptionally high, because even at 10 dice you're pushing it having to roll against a Threshold (3) addiction test every two weeks. Once you take that first hit, it'll just get progressively worse.

And Crush/JackVII, if you think roleplaying a Cram user could be problematic, try roleplaying a Jazz or Kamikaze user... All I'm saying is that Cram is like sugar compared to the methamphetamine of Kamikaze.

[JackVII]

If you know you're going into something, sure you'd take Cram. But again, you don't always know when bad stuff is going down. As for the delay... there's technically no reason to turn off WR. It's just as much of a roleplaying issue as using Cram. If you do turn it off, you at least get to turn it on with a Simple Action and make use of it immediately. rather than waiting 200 Combat Turns.

And if you're creating a combat monster that doesn't have high Willpower, you're setting yourself up for failure, because it's one of the few stats that can't be improved much by 'ware. Resisting a Threshold (1) test every 6 weeks does not an addict make, when you're rolling 8-10 dice, if you even need to roll given the above "schedule" mentioned (11-Addiction Rating 4, equals 7 weeks; use for several weeks, then don't. Problem solved. Kamikaze, on the other hand, is guaranteed one (or even more) test(s) from just a single dose, due to the high AR).

Regardless of whether you want it or not, your combat monster is unlikely to have a fantastic WIL & LOG if you're trying to be effective in killing stuff and soaking/avoiding damage (BOD, STR, AGI, REA, INT prioritized right there), which is the point of most combat monsters. I think your suggested 8-10 dice quickly drops to 5-7 on a normal build of that nature. Also, if you "need" drugs to survive a run or combat, I don't think you often have much choice in setting up your schedule of use. "Do I die now or risk getting addicted to this drug, let me ponder...".

ETA: My drug guy has BOD (6), WIL (3), and EDG (5). He rolls his 9 dice first and then, if he doesn't get his hits, uses Edge to reroll his misses. Total of 9 + (9, 8, or 7) dice should give a reasonably high chance to get 3 or fewer hits. He only has a Logic of 2, so the Psychological drugs have him scared.

...and yeah, he is roleplayed like a hyperkenetic daredevil when he's on kamikaze and not much less intense when not drugged.

<- Checks thread title. Oops, sorry that this has gotten a bit far a filed. This will be my last one on this particular subject.

[martinchaen]

Going slightly more off-topic;
Can you even use edge on an addiction test that takes place during downtime?

As for your "your combat monster is unlikely to have fantastic WIL & LOG", I disagree; willpower is essential for all characters, due to the nature of Fear effects and Control Action spells, as a good mage can only help, not completely defend against such things.

As a counter-example; my combat "monster" has BOD4 and WIL 5, with EDG 6. I also roll 24 armor dice, have 14 physical condition boxes, 20 dice on melee cyber implants and with SMGs, since I spent just over 400k on cyber limbs. Once I get my pain editor in game, stun won't even matter much; case in point, not all combat monsters are created equal. ...

To drag this back on topic; I thing the cross reference matrix won't do us much good except in those instances where the RAW is clear enough that no argument can be made against it. Examples of this is Bone Lacing and Bone Density Augmentation, Dermal Plating and Orthoskin, and Muscle Replacement and Muscle Augmentation/Toner.

Personally, I have no problem allowing the combination of Enhanced Reflexes (spell), Cram (drug), and Synaptic Boosters (bioware), as to my mind they all alter slightly different parts of your body (magical, chemical/neurological, and physical/physiological, respectively), up to the maximum of +4 above current stat (REA and INT) and +5d6 dice. The reason I don't have a problem with it is that to my mind the restrictions imposed by 'ware is only limited to other 'ware, not magical or chemical means. But that's my interpretation, and my interpretation only.

Looking forward to the FAQ/Errata.

[ZeConster]

In my reading it's just saying Initiative, in the p 159 sense of the word. Remember that since I think that Initiative is a more inclusive concept I don't actually need to know whether Increased Reflexes is adding to score or attribute because it's adding to initiative and at the end of the day either case would have the same result.

I'm well aware of your opinion (plus you repeated it as a prelude to your question): however, you asked why I thought "Initiative" there would refer to the [Initiative Attribute] and not the [Initiative Score], and I responded to the question you asked.

There's actually not much ambiguity unless you choose to ignore the definition on p 159. It's only at the point that you've accepted that Initiative is not necessarily initiative that things become vague and complex.

I do not ignore the p.159 text: I simply refuse to believe it magically means all "Initiative" uses refer to the p.159 [broad concept of Initiative] instead of the p.52 [Initiative Attribute] just because they don't slap "attribute" at the end every time even though they don't do that for the other attributes either.

[JackVII]

As a counter-example; my combat "monster" has BOD4 and WIL 5, with EDG 6. I also roll 24 armor dice, have 14 physical condition boxes, 20 dice on melee cyber implants and with SMGs, since I spent just over 400k on cyber limbs. Once I get my pain editor in game, stun won't even matter much; case in point, not all combat monsters are created equal. ...

OK, interesting aside: That's actually very similar to my build. Swap the two points on BOD and WIL and they're basically the same.  I edge you out one box on physical condition monitor and I would guess two on body soak since we have the same Armor dice. How did you end up with 6 Edge? That seems a rather odd number for Edge. Two last questions since I might adjust my character concept: How did you get 20 dice on cyberimplant weaponry and what were your non-augmented STR & AGI?

Edit: Rather than muddying this thread, can you PM the charsheet? Thanks!

[Crunch]

In my reading it's just saying Initiative, in the p 159 sense of the word. Remember that since I think that Initiative is a more inclusive concept I don't actually need to know whether Increased Reflexes is adding to score or attribute because it's adding to initiative and at the end of the day either case would have the same result.

I'm well aware of your opinion (plus you repeated it as a prelude to your question): however, you asked why I thought "Initiative" there would refer to the [Initiative Attribute] and not the [Initiative Score], and I responded to the question you asked.

There's actually not much ambiguity unless you choose to ignore the definition on p 159. It's only at the point that you've accepted that Initiative is not necessarily initiative that things become vague and complex.

I do not ignore the p.159 text: I simply refuse to believe it magically means all "Initiative" uses refer to the p.159 [broad concept of Initiative] instead of the p.52 [Initiative Attribute] just because they don't slap "attribute" at the end every time even though they don't do that for the other attributes either.

Unfortunately Ze, your answer was non responsive. You asked me why I was doing something I'm not doing (reading initiative as initiative score) when I am in fact reading Initiative as Initiative rather than Initiative score or Initiative Attribute.

And again I fail to see how assuming that the term initiative means what it's defined to mean is any way magical. My reading is that they say Initiative when they mean initiative, initiative score when they mean initiative score and initiative attribute when they mean initiative attribute.

[Xenon]

That the enhancement is incompatible with Initiative Attribute because the intent of the author at the time of writing might or might not have been that the enhancement should be incompatible with Initiative Attribute instead of incompatible with "Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice" is an interpretation of RAI.

RAW is "...incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative". By the RAW definition of "Initiative" that translate into "...incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction, Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score or Initiative Dice".


Further; "p.52 Initiative" that you keep pointing too state two things
1) Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation.
2) A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition.

The definition for Initiative can be found on p.159
The definition for Initiative Attribute can be found at p.159

Then you have "p.52 Initiative Dice" that state:
1) Initiative Dice, as described on p. 159, are extra dice used to roll a character’s Initiative Score.

The definition for Initiative Dice can be found on p.159
The definition for Initiative Score can be found on p.159

Initiative:
1) Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation. (p.52)
2) Initiative determines the order in which characters act,  as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. (p.159)
3) Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice. (p.159)

Initiative Attribute:
1) A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition (p.52)
2) The Initiative Attribute is a derived attribute used to measure the speed, perceptiveness, and reaction rate of a combatant. (p.159)
3) See the Initiative Attribute Chart to determine Initiative attributes for different types of combatants (Physical, Astral, Matrix, or Rigging) and their Base Initiative Die. (p.159)

The only inconsistency between p.52 and p.159 that I can see is that Initiative Attribute on p.52 only talk about the more common Physical Initiative Type, while the definition of Initiative Attribute on p.159 goes into more detail and also cover how to derive the Initiative Attribute for Astral, Matrix: AR, Matrix: cold-sim VR, Matrix hot-sim VR and Rigging AR.

How much advance warning do you need that you're going into combat.

~10 minutes (or ~200 combat turns).

...but that might be the case for anybody...

Improved Reflexes does not even have an activation time (unlike all the adept powers that do have an activation time), not even sure they can turn it off even if they want to. There is no real game mechanic disadvantage of having Wired Reflexes on at all times (except when you want to move slow - like when walking pass a motion sensor). Most magicians that rely on Increased Reflexes re-cast the spell each morning and then sustain it until they go to sleep or fall unconscious (often in a way to get rid of the -2 distraction modifier for mentally sustaining the spell). Synaptic Boosters are also always active i believe.



Ze, using bold in every single post you make put a.... not sure how to say this... mm.. "hostile"(?) tone on your posts. I am sure the intention is just to highlight specific words but that is how i perceive it when i read it. might just be me, or how this forum really make bold "stand out". I don't know (no biggie, but I thought I should at least mention it once so you know. at least on this forum i found using italics work much better for "highlighting" a word).

[ZeConster]

Unfortunately Ze, your answer was non responsive. You asked me why I was doing something I'm not doing (reading initiative as initiative score) when I am in fact reading Initiative as Initiative rather than Initiative score or Initiative Attribute.

I did not ask you that.
Let me break it down for you:

• I said "I think it's obvious that Y means A and not B here because blahblahblah."
• You said "But why would you think Y means A and not C?"
• I said "Why would they use Y to mean C instead of A when they use X to mean C over a hundred times?"

Here, re-read my post:

Why would they use "Initiative" to refer to your [Initiative Score] in that place when "Initiative score" occurs 149 times in the book?

Notice how at no point I'm asking you why you're reading "Initiative" as meaning "Initiative Score" there? I'm simply responding to you asking me why I'm not reading "Initiative" as meaning "Initiative Score" there.
So my response was an obvious summarized version of the following:

• The [Initiative Attribute] is an Attribute that's named "Initiative".
• The [Initiative Score] is a score, yes, but it is constantly referred to as either "Initiative Score" or "score".
• Therefore, it doesn't make sense for them to use "Initiative" to mean "Initiative Score" there.

So not only was my answer indeed responsive (I used a rhetorical question to argue "that would make no sense"), but I also did not say what you say I said.

Further; "p.52 Initiative" that you keep pointing too state two things
1) Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation.
2) A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition.

Except the rest of the chapter doesn't slap "attribute" on the end every time they talk about an attribute either (plus if they were to mean the p.159 concept there, they'd probably have put a reference to p.159 there). The same is the case in the spell section and the augmentation section.

Ze, using bold in every single post you make put a.... not sure how to say this... mm.. "hostile"(?) tone on your posts. I am sure the intention is just to highlight specific words but that is how i perceive it when i read it. might just be me, or how this forum really make bold "stand out". I don't know (no biggie, but I thought I should at least mention it once so you know. at least on this forum i found using italics work much better for "highlighting" a word).

I use italics to emphasize, and bold partly to strongly emphasize, partly to make sure people don't overlook or misread what I think is an important part of my post. As Crunch's post shows, I in fact do not use bold often enough.
And personally, I find that using smilies when criticizing someone gives off a "condescending" or "patronizing" tone, but hey, that's probably just me. I also don't particularly like being called by a 2-letter abbreviation of my nick (it gives off an "it's not worth the effort to call you by something that even approximates your full nick" vibe), but I'm sure you and Crunch mean no harm.

[Crunch]

Zeconster, I'm not reading it a Initiative Score. I'm reading it as Initiative per p 159. Excuse me if I'm unclear.

In the description of Increased Reflexes it in no place mentions score, nor attribute. It doesn't mention adding to Reflex. It simply says that it is adding to initiative. Under my reading that's perfectly clear. How do you get to "they must be talking about Initiative Attribute when the text makes no mention of Attribute, nor of anything related to the attribute?

[ZeConster]

Zeconster, I'm not reading it a Initiative Score. I'm reading it as Initiative per p 159.

Okay, seriously, how long are we going to continue spinning in circles here? As I've already explained, I know you're not reading it as Initiative Score, and at no point did I say you did read it as that. How can you possibly read my "I didn't say you said X" post and go "but I didn't say X"?

In the description of Increased Reflexes it in no place mentions score, nor attribute. It doesn't mention adding to Reflex. It simply says that it is adding to initiative. Under my reading that's perfectly clear. How do you get to "they must be talking about Initiative Attribute when the text makes no mention of Attribute, nor of anything related to the attribute?

If you want to know the answer to that, I suggest you re-read this post, where I already explained why I got to that conclusion.

[Crunch]

You might want to read my clarifying edit, as I went back and realized I had been unclear.