[Dracain]

On a side note: man, this argument must have gotten heated if people are rebutting my obvious-tongue-in-cheek examples along with the more serious ones

It is very difficult to tell that something on the internet was said as a joke, especially when it is something said in response to a serious question.

I was seriously curious why grenades occur commonly enough as to be a concern, because in my games they tend to only come into play when the PCs have decided to out-right destroy someone or somewhere, which comes with its own "balancing factor" in the way of the poor rep it causes, and now with SR5's Karma rewards system including a modifier for the "should make you feel like a bastard" activities.

Basically, Sure grenades are a terrifyingly efficient way to kill people... but runners aren't meant to be all about the "easy kill", they are meant to have complex morals such as to feel bad about the potential wife/kids left without because of the guard they just killed.

While I'm sure some runners play like that, some people like to play the heartless bastard, who will kill without remorse, and will most certainly go for the easy kill.  I don't like to assume what runners should be like, because there are a lot of runners, and a lot of different people.  Sometimes they save the world, sometimes they shoot people in the face for money, and sometimes they shove a grenade up someone's backside to save some time. 

[Noble Drake]

Yes, Dracain, that is true... but there is always a "default' assumed by the game, and with Shadowrun (at least 5th edition, where the rules finally encourage a particular behavior over others) that is that runners are encouraged to maintain some kind of "good" despite all the "evil" that they do.

[Michael Chandra]

I was seriously curious why grenades occur commonly enough as to be a concern, because in my games they tend to only come into play when the PCs have decided to out-right destroy someone or somewhere, which comes with its own "balancing factor" in the way of the poor rep it causes, and now with SR5's Karma rewards system including a modifier for the "should make you feel like a bastard" activities.

Well, at GenCon last week, all of the Catalyst sponsored shadowrun GMs allowed a dodge test of some sort for grenades and AoE except one, who didn't really know any of the rules.  Most allowed a dodge test with the -2 modifier where each success reduced the damage by a meter.  This worked well for game balance.  The GM who did not allow for a dodge test against a grenade saw nearly the entire SR team taken out with a single grenade, a clear break of the game balance.  Grenade throwing by the enemy was VERY common while grenade throwing from players was very uncommon (runners don't want all that noise, attention and potential collateral damage).

[Noble Drake]

I was seriously curious why grenades occur commonly enough as to be a concern, because in my games they tend to only come into play when the PCs have decided to out-right destroy someone or somewhere, which comes with its own "balancing factor" in the way of the poor rep it causes, and now with SR5's Karma rewards system including a modifier for the "should make you feel like a bastard" activities.

Well, at GenCon last week, all of the Catalyst sponsored shadowrun GMs allowed a dodge test of some sort for grenades and AoE except one, who didn't really know any of the rules.  Most allowed a dodge test with the -2 modifier where each success reduced the damage by a meter.  This worked well for game balance.  The GM who did not allow for a dodge test against a grenade saw nearly the entire SR team taken out with a single grenade, a clear break of the game balance.  Grenade throwing by the enemy was VERY common while grenade throwing from players was very uncommon (runners don't want all that noise, attention and potential collateral damage).

Thanks, but an example of how someone had a TPK when there were grenades is not an answer as to my "why are there so many grenades being thrown around as to have to worry about it," question.

[Veggiesama]

Thanks, but an example of how someone had a TPK when there were grenades is not an answer as to my "why are there so many grenades being thrown around as to have to worry about it," question.

Because they're cheap and easily available. You can use whatever in-game post-facto justifications you want for why players and NPCs will or won't use grenades, but the fact of the matter is that not everyone has such a clear idea of how the universe is supposed to operate. Imagine a group of new players sitting around a table, a player announces that he will toss a grenade at the BBEG and the henchmen, but they aren't given a defense roll and melt under the blast.

But, but--bad GM! Bad players! Bad roleplaying! No--bad rules.

[Noble Drake]

Thanks, but an example of how someone had a TPK when there were grenades is not an answer as to my "why are there so many grenades being thrown around as to have to worry about it," question.

Because they're cheap and easily available. You can use whatever in-game post-facto justifications you want for why players and NPCs will or won't use grenades, but the fact of the matter is that not everyone has such a clear idea of how the universe is supposed to operate. Imagine a group of new players sitting around a table, a player announces that he will toss a grenade at the BBEG and the henchmen, but they aren't given a defense roll and melt under the blast.

But, but--bad GM! Bad players! Bad roleplaying! No--bad rules.

Yeah... calm down there, no one said that throwing grenades was "bad players" or "bad role-playing" - and explosives that are highly lethal certainly isn't "bad rules" in a game that is meant to have a lethality based heavily on the real world and another 6 decades of (mostly unchecked) advances in weapons technology.

Trying to make "got blowed up by a grenade" into "fair rules" is a big problem, especially because the only way to make them believable (that you dove out of the way) could run into the problem of being in the same situation as the rules already provide (no defense, just damage resistance) if you foolishly chose to move already.

...and I really like how "new player" is somehow automatically assumed to be synonymous with "isn't going to think of any of the real world reasons why grenades aren't everyone's go-to weapon." Even completely new players are going to have an idea as to what is and isn't in the "yes, I could do that, but that is also not a great choice in 'big picture' sense" category.

[Mirikon]

Explosions are bad for you. In other breaking news, water is wet.

Honestly, the only way to do any kind of 'defense roll' like people keep yammering about would be to incorporate reflex saves as you see in D&D. But since that would require a substantial rewrite to the most fundamental portions of the rules, let's forget about that. If a new player is doing something potentially stupid, most GMs are going to do the "Are you sure?" line at least once, to get them to actually think.

Grenades and other explosives are high lethality, but also draw all kinds of bad attention. This isn't Counterstrike, where you can go buckwild and throw grenades like candy. And, honestly, in my experience most people who get carefree with grenades tend to get dead, very quickly, just like people who reach to the assault cannon when everyone else reaches for a Predator. Sure, geek the mage first, but the guy with a bandoleer full of grenades is going to be a very close second.

[ZeConster]

I'm sure the player who just lost a character to a grenade will be thrilled to find out the NPC who threw it will get in trouble for using it.

[Noble Drake]

I'm sure the player who just lost a character to a grenade will be thrilled to find out the NPC who threw it will get in trouble for using it.

So... GMs don't think of what gear the NPC would feel like carrying and using from an in-character point of view, and instead just choose whatever makes PCs die the fastest - Right. Totally. Everyone does that.

Or not, since using the canned NPCs is a bunch easier than custom-building your own and not a single one comes with a make-you-dead grenade.

[RHat]

I'm sure the player who just lost a character to a grenade will be thrilled to find out the NPC who threw it will get in trouble for using it.

So... GMs don't think of what gear the NPC would feel like carrying and using from an in-character point of view, and instead just choose whatever makes PCs die the fastest - Right. Totally. Everyone does that.

Right, because no GM is gonna have gangers load up on fairly inexpensive munitions.

Grenades are cheap as hell, which at very least means that non-consequence minded NPCs are highly likely to carry them.

[Michael Chandra]

Thanks, but an example of how someone had a TPK when there were grenades is not an answer as to my "why are there so many grenades being thrown around as to have to worry about it," question.

As the quote points out, these were the official Shadowrun events hosted by Demo Team Agents at GenCon. If you want to ask why "Grenade throwing by the enemy was VERY common" in those, ask the developers of the CMPs.

[Noble Drake]

I'm sure the player who just lost a character to a grenade will be thrilled to find out the NPC who threw it will get in trouble for using it.

So... GMs don't think of what gear the NPC would feel like carrying and using from an in-character point of view, and instead just choose whatever makes PCs die the fastest - Right. Totally. Everyone does that.

Right, because no GM is gonna have gangers load up on fairly inexpensive munitions.

Grenades are cheap as hell, which at very least means that non-consequence minded NPCs are highly likely to carry them.

Here is a little secret about the real word as of today: It is easier to get your hands on the materials to make pipe bombs in bulk than it is to get your hands on a handgun... and yet look at the crime statistics and see the number of "gang related" shootings (a subset of gun-related crimes) compared to the number of crimes that involve explosives at all.

Cheap, easy to get,  and excessively dangerous doesn't beat out more reliable and trickier to obtain weapons now - so why would it in the future? Also note that the wild west era is not filled with stories of bandits tossing sticks of dynamite (talk about cheap and easy to make explosives) at folks that agitated them, but instead involves a lot of guns... which costs months worth of groceries in cash.

Michael Chandra, to your point that I should ask the developers responsible for the grenades in that scenario - you are right, I should be questioning their motives for doing so just like I questioned everyone else... though rather than believe that the problem is that grenade rules are broken for how frequently they are meant to show up for "setting reasons", I choose to believe that even the developers of a con event can make poor choices, like including grenades as part of the NPC tactics and not providing adequate warning/ability for the PCs to prepare accordingly - likely starting the PC awareness of grenades coming their way with an explosion that harms one or more of them, rather than with a description that the NPCs coming their way have grenades fastened to their tac-vests.

[RHat]

Here is a little secret about the real word as of today: It is easier to get your hands on the materials to make pipe bombs in bulk than it is to get your hands on a handgun... and yet look at the crime statistics and see the number of "gang related" shootings (a subset of gun-related crimes) compared to the number of crimes that involve explosives at all.

Cheap, easy to get,  and excessively dangerous doesn't beat out more reliable and trickier to obtain weapons now - so why would it in the future?

What you're missing is that MAKING a bomb has a higher ability requirement than pointing a gun and squeezing a trigger.  Throwing a grenade does not.

[Michael Chandra]

likely starting the PC awareness of grenades coming their way with an explosion that harms one or more of them, rather than with a description that the NPCs coming their way have grenades fastened to their tac-vests.

At that point you are not making claims about the developers anymore, but about the same GMs that houseruled a dodge rule, which makes it pretty damn unlikely they went "oh you see a grenade flying your way, roll X to get out of dodge". Criticize the developers all you want for making a decision, but please do not criticize Demo Team Agents with an assumption that has no support whatsoever.

[Noble Drake]

What you're missing is that MAKING a bomb has a higher ability requirement than pointing a gun and squeezing a trigger.  Throwing a grenade does not.

Not according to SR5.

You can default both Firearms and Demolitions skills, and gaining points in them cost the same as well.

...and from a point of view I find interesting, you can find step-by-step directions for making explosives, and simply following that recipe results in successfully making explosives... but reading a list of directions as to how to shoot a gun doesn't actually make you very accurate.

Michael, I made no assumption about the developers. The assumption I made, which is that many (if not all) of the groups that ran into TPK situations where not told that their opponents were carrying grenades until the GM said "...and then this guy throws a grenade," and thus could not do any of the many things which could have been done to mitigate the threat of the grenades... such as scattering and taking cover, or simply falling back outside the likely throwing range.

Simply put, I assume that the discussion and decision about house ruling grenade defense or not happened following "the bad guy throws a grenade", and not pre-action as a preempt to anyone even knowing whether grenades were going to be involved in the run or not.