[Volomon]

This rule doesn't seem to be defined.  It explains that a barrier that does not explode can reflect shock waves, potentially doubling the damage if it's by one wall for example and an additional 1x per wall.  The example pulls this formula out of no where and nothing explains it.  I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't figure out what.  It seems to be a common theme with this book.

[RHat]

The example is made overcomplicated by the fact that it demonstrates both multiple simultaneous blasts and blasts in confined spaces - but all it's doing for the confined space is tracking the distance based reduction in the damage of the grenade.

[Reaver]

To me, it sounds like the 'chunky salsa' rules got tuned down A LOT!!

Sounds like what they are saying is: "If there is walls that would stand up to the blast, double the damage (triple if 2 walls, etc).

The way you handled the old 'chunky salsa' rules were so time consuming, groups of players where know to order, get, and eat an entire pizza before the math was done...

..... And players who got 'smart-assed' with it, usually found a phone book attached to their head...
( player: "As soon as that van door opens up, I lobe 9 grenades in with my FA launcher"

OR
Player: "I hack the strike teams node, and then detonate ALL their grenades at once while they are in the hall".

My personal fav...

Me: "so let's see... You are all in a brick alleyway, you are ALL carrying grenades, EX-EX ammo, and other explovies while in military gear... And just opened up and geeked the initiated Mage's guards. He overcasts fireball to F24 AND uses edge.... <rolls, does math> 19 susseses... More then enough to set off your ammo, nades, and explosives. What do you want to figure out first, spell damage, or Salsa from your equipment.... Or you ready to call it a day on your "vengeance on Knight, cuz he's got bad hair!!" kick?")

[Michael Chandra]

The Chunky Salsa rules are no different, really, the example simply is rather complicated.

[Reaver]

The Chunky Salsa rules are no different, really, the example simply is rather complicated.

actually a little bit differently... now it's a flat x2(x3, x4) IF Chunky Salsa comes into play.

Before, it the damage stacked as "waves" of damage passed through him, up to the max radius of the attack...

SO... so use the mage  example above as a template:


Situation: 4 meter wide plascrete alleyway between two skyscrapers. the Defender is standing in the exact middle of the alleyway (for simpliticity), so 2 meters to each wall.

 Initiated Mage casts: a Force 24 fireball. directly at the defender...

Attack: Mage rolls dice pool + edge: total is 19 susses
Defender rolls reaction + edge: total is 9

Damage: F(24)+10P
Exceed the Object resistance of his ammo (Ex-Ex), explosives (6kg of C-14) and grenades (6 HE, 6 Frag).

so as those blasts wave goes off for a grenade: (10p 1-/2meters)

Damage: 10.
1:  right blast wave travel 2m, hits right wall, bounces back to defender (4m)
Damage: 16.
2:  Right blast wave travels to left wall (6m), bounces back to defender (8m)
Damage: 18.
3: :  Right blast wave dissipates in 2 metes.
Damage: 18
4: <see #1:, replace RIGHT with LEFT>
Damage: 24.
5: <see #2.....>
Damage: 26.
6: First Grenade done.......



Now it would be a straight up, Damage x3..... Per grenade. C14, and ammo....

[Ryo]

The description of Chunky Salsa in the book is still describing it as rebounding waves. I honestly have no idea where you're getting the Damage *3, thing. Here's a direct quote.

When a grenade detonates in a confined space, such as a hallway or room, the gamemaster must first determine whether any barriers (usually walls) stood firm against the explosion. Consult the Destroying Barriers rules (p. 197). If the walls or doors hold up, the blast is channeled. Otherwise, determine blast effects normally.
If the walls hold, the shock wave reflects off of them, continuing back in the direction from which it came. If this rebounding shock wave maintains enough Damage Value to reach a character, that character is subject to the appropriate blast effect. If the character is struck a second time by the shock wave (once as it headed out and again as it rebounded), the Damage Value of the blast is equal to the combined Damage Value of the two waves.
Theoretically, a detonating explosive’s blast could rebound repeatedly off each of the six surfaces in a small, well-built room, raising the effective Damage Value of the blast to a value far higher than the original damage of the grenade. This is known as the “chunky salsa effect.”

[Michael Chandra]

Now it would be a straight up, Damage x3..... Per grenade. C14, and ammo....

Even overlapping explosions don't use a simple x2 multiplier. You should reread the section. Also, x3 per ammo? Are you talking about attacking barriers?

[Reaver]

Actually, I don't have the PDF yet. (and never will... I like DTF)

I was relying on the description by the OP....


and it's good/bad that the Chunky Salsa is still around. It's one of those original rules that really set SR apart from other systems... just wish it was so cumbersome...

[samoth]

The problem is that grenades are now so incredibly overpowered that a single Flash-Bang can easily outright KILL anyone if it gets even one deflection off of a surface...and by the rules the ground counts as a surface for chunky salsa so every grenade automatically receives a x2 damage modifier.

[Crunch]

If you run into a GM playing the bounce off the ground Phonebook them.

[Michael Chandra]

I wouldn't use the ground and roof to begin with myself, and I wouldn't use deflections for flashbangs either.

[Reaver]

Just what is bouncing off the walls with a FB??

the bright light? Does that mean that a wall of mirrors turns a FB into a Reflex Canon??

seriously folks, think about this all for a second.....

ALL a flash bang is, is a very loud noise and a brilliant light. There is NO REAL DAMAGE here! For game purposes, it is treated as stun damage... even though all that really happens in your senses get over whelmed... (Vertigo, Black spots in vision, etc). And yes, this CAN render some people unconscious.... but that's about it.*

Now what the "Chunky Salsa" rules are meant to reflect is (as it says) the shockwave of an explosion. Not the shrapnel, or burning matter... just that solid wall of air that is created by the explosive blast.

Now, I am not an expert of shockwaves.. but I DO work with pneumatic industrial equipment and have seen my share of "catastrophic failures" of storage, venting, compressing, and decesent equipment.

The ground has nothing to do with it and is usually fine... the walls however.... (the ceiling is also usually untouched)**





*Yes, sound can kill, even outright harm... but the volume needed is so high as to be mute. there is NO way to increase a FB to that level.

**In the industrial world... Blow-up, blow-out, blow-back all mean something to us:
 
 Blow-up is where something has been propelled (think like a bullet in a gun... or a rocket.)..... I have seen 15klbs tanks shoot almost 2km high..... Pretty when it's propane.... scary when it's air....

 Blow-outs are the most fearsome thing and strike terror everywhere. A Blow-out is usually something under force, like gas, water, oil, slurry, etc. Here you have a large volume of substance shooting out.. and if it's flammable.. you now have a column of fire.... under FORCE! Worse when it's poisonous gas.... now it's spraying out.. and then suffusing the area...and you die if you are not protected.

[samoth]

Logic says you are right, but the rules as written do not agree.  A flash-bang used to be called a concussion grenade.  What you're describing is a Flash Pak.

[Michael Chandra]

Not really since Flash Paks simply provide glare.

Actually, given how flashbangs would not be able to damage the walls to begin with, RAW might support them bouncing but it's entirely fair for a GM to decide that they get soaked up by the wall. And I consider them more a radius thing, not a moving shockwave that can bounce.

[Reaver]

Logic says you are right, but the rules as written do not agree.  A flash-bang used to be called a concussion grenade.  What you're describing is a Flash Pak.

use a little logic and common sense I am sure the writer's thought you had some.