[ZeConster]

There are a lot of things that are too powerful to be used unless the players deserve it. I would never put players on the other side of a gauss gun unless they'd been flashing the milspec hardware or were going into a high security area where those were part of the defenses.

Last time I checked (4E Arsenal), the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle cost 13k and had an Availability that even Restricted Gear won't allow you to get, and the rounds cost 35¥ each. Grenades are 100¥ each and have Availability 11F. The two aren't exactly on the same tier price-wise.

If you're all grouped together where a single grenade can take you out, you deserve it for terminal stupidity.

The only thing fanning out will get you is that only one of you dies without any chance of escape, instead of more than one, though. I guess our viewpoints simply differ: yours is "if a grenade is used against you, you must've deserved it", while mine is "it's pretty much insta-kill, there's no real defense possible, and a random ganger can afford one, so the chance of running into them under normal situations seems a lot higher than acceptable".

As for flashbangs, you can houserule them to not do chunky salsa, but under the rules, they're no different from other grenades.

Except for the part where they "create a bright, loud, shocking blast distributed equally over a radius of 10 meters" instead of their DV dropping as distance increases, of course.

[Dracain]

You go and assault a Yakuza headquarters, or a corporate lab, or whatever, you should expect them to use lethal force against you. Those are the consequences of your actions. The moment it turned into an assault instead of a stealth run, there is no 'randomly' or 'undeservedly' about it.

So you agree then that grenades are too powerful to use unless the players really, really deserved it? Because if so, this seems to boil down to "you shouldn't use grenades against players unless they deserved it" versus "if you use grenades against players, they deserved it".

There are a lot of things that are too powerful to be used unless the players deserve it. I would never put players on the other side of a gauss gun unless they'd been flashing the milspec hardware or were going into a high security area where those were part of the defenses. Grenades I'm a bit more liberal with, though I tend to avoid throwing them except when tactics dictate it. Security forces try to avoid blowing holes in the place they're defending, naturally, but if someone's got them pinned down with the machine gun, or other tactics that would warrant such actions, then yes, grenades will be incoming. If you're all grouped together where a single grenade can take you out, you deserve it for terminal stupidity. If you start in on the third clip of ammo and you aren't hightailing it to your exit, you deserve what happens. If you brought milspec anything, you deserve what happens. If you threw grenades or AOE spells first, you deserve what happens. If you are in a Zero Zone, you deserve what happens. If you said 'No' to Lofwyr, you deserve what happens. If you killed half the security force, you deserve what happens. And so on.

I think the problem people have with grenades isn't that they're powerful and highly dangerous.  I think the problem is that they are "you die now, no you do not get a roll".  Just giving a defense roll of some sort would generally balance it out, and give people a chance to not die the second some mook throws a grenade. 

Grenades are quite survivable, especially with higher Armor bonuses, as long as you don't get caught in a small plascrete room with them. Especially if you use edge, or your mage has a spirit who makes use of the Accident power, or your hacker has fun with people's eyes, or... well, you get the point. The key to surviving a motion sensor grenade is to always be aware of the situation. That means you avoid long bottlenecks where someone could blast you with impunity, or other 'kill zones'. That means you avoid grouping together and making yourself an attractive target for grenades. That means if possible, you get up in their face, so they can't use grenades without blowing themselves up. That means you set up distractions (like a drone using suppressive fire) to keep the bad guys behind cover. Simply put, it is the difference between being a professional badass and a punk with a gun.

The key to that though, is that while all the other things may kill them, there is still a defense roll.  Even Lofwyr has to roll, and while you are almost 100% going to die if Lofwyr wants you dead, there is still a defense roll. 

[Michael Chandra]

To be fair, not everything has a dodge roll, some things simply have just a resistance roll.

[Dracain]

To be fair, not everything has a dodge roll, some things simply have just a resistance roll.

While this is true, those things still give you a reasonable chance to resist it.  With direct spells, you'll likely take damage, but not much.  Grenades are simply "roll damage resist", and with the high DV, chances are that you'll take a fair amount of damage.  I can't think of another mundane weapon that you can just throw/shoot at an enemy and they simply have to resist it. 

[Mirikon]

To be fair, not everything has a dodge roll, some things simply have just a resistance roll.

While this is true, those things still give you a reasonable chance to resist it.  With direct spells, you'll likely take damage, but not much.  Grenades are simply "roll damage resist", and with the high DV, chances are that you'll take a fair amount of damage.  I can't think of another mundane weapon that you can just throw/shoot at an enemy and they simply have to resist it.

Well, any weapon where the person doesn't know he's being targeted. Grenades are 'roll damage resistance', yes, but while the DV is up, so are Armor bonuses. And everyone has more Edge this time through than they did in 4th, it seems. And Dracain, if Lofwyr wants you dead, what makes you think he'd stoop to using actual attacks on you? There's this thing called Control Actions, which is essentially a Save or Die.

Last time I checked (4E Arsenal), the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle cost 13k and had an Availability that even Restricted Gear won't allow you to get, and the rounds cost 35¥ each. Grenades are 100¥ each and have Availability 11F. The two aren't exactly on the same tier price-wise.

I never said anything about price. I was talking about tactics.

The only thing fanning out will get you is that only one of you dies without any chance of escape, instead of more than one, though. I guess our viewpoints simply differ: yours is "if a grenade is used against you, you must've deserved it", while mine is "it's pretty much insta-kill, there's no real defense possible, and a random ganger can afford one, so the chance of running into them under normal situations seems a lot higher than acceptable".

If someone's throwing grenades at you, then unless you walked into an ambush (which means you deserve what happens), you've probably done something to deserve it (even if it was failing an etiquette roll and pissing off the local gang leader). And grenades are only 'insta-kill' if you're in an enclosed space that can contain the blast. If you're in the open, or in most drywall/brick spaces, then a blast is survivable, especially with Edge. And unless you're dealing with go-gangs like the Halloweeners, you're more likely to see grenades on corporate property (when going up against HTR corpsec) or in the barrens (when dealing with crazies). If you're up against HTR, you've done something to deserve it. If you're in the Barrens, you've already resigned yourself to death. Everywhere else, the people with grenades probably have things they don't want to get damaged, and grenades are very indiscriminate that way. So even if they have grenades, they're not as likely to use them if you keep situational awareness in mind, and don't go huddling in the plascrete room where there aren't any machines that react badly to explosions.

Except for the part where they "create a bright, loud, shocking blast distributed equally over a radius of 10 meters" instead of their DV dropping as distance increases, of course.

Which does not say that it is not counted as a blast in confined space. The lack of dropoff does not negate the other rules as written unless it specifically says so. Which it doesn't.

[ZeConster]

Last time I checked (4E Arsenal), the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle cost 13k and had an Availability that even Restricted Gear won't allow you to get, and the rounds cost 35¥ each. Grenades are 100¥ each and have Availability 11F. The two aren't exactly on the same tier price-wise.

I never said anything about price. I was talking about tactics.

Price matters, though - grenades are far easier to obtain than gauss rifles. A street punk with a chip on his shoulder can obtain a grenade, but not a gauss rifle.

If someone's throwing grenades at you, then unless you walked into an ambush (which means you deserve what happens), you've probably done something to deserve it (even if it was failing an etiquette roll and pissing off the local gang leader).

Like I said, that's a matter of differing viewpoints: I think the threshold for "someone uses a grenade against you" is way lower than you do.

And grenades are only 'insta-kill' if you're in an enclosed space that can contain the blast. If you're in the open, or in most drywall/brick spaces, then a blast is survivable, especially with Edge.

Except the outside has these things called "alleys" and "building walls" which are strong enough to withstand grenade blasts. Not to mention that while damage is up, the blast dropoff hasn't changed, which not only increases the distance you'd have to be away from each other for "it can only take out one of us", but also makes it easier to get the enclosed space rule. As an example, if a frag grenade explodes 2m from you and 4m from a single wall (12.12% of blasting a hole in a brick wall, 0.35% chance if it's concrete), that's 24P/+5, which with 12 Armor and 5 Body results in a 70.57% of dropping you even with using Edge for a reroll.

Except for the part where they "create a bright, loud, shocking blast distributed equally over a radius of 10 meters" instead of their DV dropping as distance increases, of course.

Which does not say that it is not counted as a blast in confined space. The lack of dropoff does not negate the other rules as written unless it specifically says so. Which it doesn't.

Yes, because if something is specifically designed to spread its effect equally over a spherical area, and specifically doesn't have a damage dropoff, then if there's barriers in the way (barriers which ignore Stun damage and therefore have 0% chance of being destroyed), it is perfectly logical to just double the damage in part of the area. Even if that were RAW, there's no way it's RAI to turn flash-bangs into murder grenades if they're used in a well-built corridor or alley (if the alley is 5m wide, you're in the middle, and the flash-bang lands at your feet, you'd take 50S/+4, which even with 12 Armor, 5 Body and 5 Willpower, and using Edge to reroll, would have a 46.77% chance of resulting in 11+(11*2)+5+1=39 damage, killing you instantly - less Willpower would increase the odds to 63.96% or more, while less Body would increase the odds to 89.46% or more).

[Veggiesama]

I dislike the idea that using grenades must be, as a virtue of their OPness, used as a punishment against players ("you deserved it"). Shadowrun has plenty of ways to steer teams toward death and destruction, but few of them cost only 100n and can be bought by the crate-load at chargen. Anyway, using grenades as some sort of punishment is silly, because you'll just encourage players to tromp around with a sack full of grenades next time, and so both sides have to deal with this anti-fun, no-dodge-roll mechanic.

[Dracain]

I dislike the idea that using grenades must be, as a virtue of their OPness, used as a punishment against players ("you deserved it"). Shadowrun has plenty of ways to steer teams toward death and destruction, but few of them cost only 100n and can be bought by the crate-load at chargen. Anyway, using grenades as some sort of punishment is silly, because you'll just encourage players to tromp around with a sack full of grenades next time, and so both sides have to deal with this anti-fun, no-dodge-roll mechanic.

I could not agree more.  Something like grenades should be a "you deserve to die, so die".  Grenades are a way to provide AOEs to mundane characters, and shouldn't be a "you die now" in most cases.  I see grenades as a tool, like any other weapon, and it shouldn't be any more restricted then the restriction and cost implies.  Why should I only use grenades when they "deserve it"?  Grenades should be used when it makes sense to use them, which would be quite common in the average shadowrun. 

[Noble Drake]

Grenades should be used when it makes sense to use them, which would be quite common in the average shadowrun.

All this talk about grenades had me look through the sample NPCs and see which one actually have Thrown Weapons skill, and which actually carry grenades...

The findings: Only one sample NPC has thrown weapons, and carries no grenades, and the only sample NPCs carrying grenades only have smoke and thermal smoke.

Also, when exactly does it make sense for NPCs to use grenades? I mean, what sort of employer supplies their security teams with weaponry that will without a doubt cause severe damage to their own property - up-to and including blowing straight through the walls and disrupting all sorts of important building infrastructure (datalines, power, etc.).

Sure, the PCs might decide to thrown some grenades around on a run and quickly destroy any opposition... but that is why there is a "makes you feel like a cold-hearted bastard" modifier for pay and karma.

[ZeConster]

Also, when exactly does it make sense for NPCs to use grenades?

• Rookie ganger with something to prove.
• Guards that are stationed outside the building (concrete walls have 32 soak dice and can withstand 11 damage without getting a hole in them).
• Guard that likes to go dynamite-fishing in his free time, but doesn't have access to dynamite since that book isn't out yet.
• Gangs in the Barrens.
• Police in the Barrens.
• Robbed-twice-before shopkeeper in the Barrens.
• Sadistic gang lieutenant that likes to play fetch with his dogs using grenades.
• "Their insurance will cover it" SWAT team.

[Mirikon]

Except the outside has these things called "alleys" and "building walls" which are strong enough to withstand grenade blasts. Not to mention that while damage is up, the blast dropoff hasn't changed, which not only increases the distance you'd have to be away from each other for "it can only take out one of us", but also makes it easier to get the enclosed space rule. As an example, if a frag grenade explodes 2m from you and 4m from a single wall (12.12% of blasting a hole in a brick wall, 0.35% chance if it's concrete), that's 24P/+5, which with 12 Armor and 5 Body results in a 70.57% of dropping you even with using Edge for a reroll.

And if you're ducking down alleyways (otherwise known as lovely killzones where anything from grenades to combat magic to automatic weapons on suppressive fire can lay waste to you) then you deserve what happens. Not to mention all the other potential problems of getting through alleyways, like dealing with a feral ghoul looking for a snack, or the chiphead desperate for a fix, or...

Are there times when you should risk going through alleyways? Sure. Is it a risk, especially when someone is trying to kill you? Yes. This plays into the whole 'situational awareness' thing I was talking about. Don't put yourself in positions where you're easy to take out. That's just basic.

As for your numbers, 24P/+5, with a 12 Armor and 5 Body means you're rolling 22 dice to resist. On average, you'll get 7 hits, with just your normal dice. That drops things to 17 damage. Rerolling failures with Edge gives you 15 dice to roll, which gives you an average of 5 more hits, dropping things to 12 damage taken. Without counting things that give extra boxes on your condition modifier, that puts you at one overflow. Down, but not dead yet. All it takes is a bit more luck with the dice than simply getting 1/3 of the dice rolled coming up hits, and you're still up, even if you're in a drekload of pain. And all this without counting things that increase your body for terms of resisting damage, getting better armor, and so on. And really, if a grenade goes off 2m from you, you ought to be dead.

Here's the thing. Shadowrun isn't a 'nice' game world, like D&D is. It's no Paranoia, but it is a game world where you can die in an instant if you play your cards wrong, and the dice gods hate you. Which is why smart, paranoid runners are the ones who live longest. They practice situational awareness, avoid making (living) enemies as much as possible, and work hard to rectify the situation if they do make enemies (one way or the other). Is it nice that grenades can kill you if you aren't prepared? No. Is it fair? Yes. Everyone's in the same pot, afterall.

I dislike the idea that using grenades must be, as a virtue of their OPness, used as a punishment against players ("you deserved it"). Shadowrun has plenty of ways to steer teams toward death and destruction, but few of them cost only 100n and can be bought by the crate-load at chargen. Anyway, using grenades as some sort of punishment is silly, because you'll just encourage players to tromp around with a sack full of grenades next time, and so both sides have to deal with this anti-fun, no-dodge-roll mechanic.

I could not agree more.  Something like grenades should be a "you deserve to die, so die".  Grenades are a way to provide AOEs to mundane characters, and shouldn't be a "you die now" in most cases.  I see grenades as a tool, like any other weapon, and it shouldn't be any more restricted then the restriction and cost implies.  Why should I only use grenades when they "deserve it"?  Grenades should be used when it makes sense to use them, which would be quite common in the average shadowrun. 

Only if you're doing the pinkest of Pink Mohawk runs. Grenades and explosives (as well as AOE combat magic) are indiscriminate bastards that can easily frag your buddies as well as the people you are trying to kill, not to mention the fact that you end up scrapping your own stuff, and drawing way too much attention to yourself. That is the kind of thing that makes corps more likely to put together reprisal teams to find you, and makes your contacts stop talking to you because you're just too hot. Sure, you can get away with some of that stuff out in the Barrens, and anything goes in feral cities, but even then, having that kind of thing brings you to the attention of the local powers that be, as well as anyone who thinks that shanking you in the men's room at the club might be a good way to pick up some sweet toys. Are there times on a run when grenades would be useful? Of course. But explosions tend to bring in HTR and worse, rather than the usual corpsec.

A common shadowrun is not about leaving a swath of destruction in your wake, but in getting in and getting out without leading all of Ares to Mr. Johnson's door.

Also, when exactly does it make sense for NPCs to use grenades?

• Rookie ganger with something to prove.
• Guards that are stationed outside the building (concrete walls have 32 soak dice and can withstand 11 damage without getting a hole in them).
• Guard that likes to go dynamite-fishing in his free time, but doesn't have access to dynamite since that book isn't out yet.
• Gangs in the Barrens.
• Police in the Barrens.
• Robbed-twice-before shopkeeper in the Barrens.
• Sadistic gang lieutenant that likes to play fetch with his dogs using grenades.
• "Their insurance will cover it" SWAT team.

Yeah, not sure about all the items on that list. In fact, not any of them.

Rookie ganger - Sorry, but no. A ganger with something to prove doesn't use grenades. That's not proving anything. They use a bat, or a gun, or their fists. That proves their skills, and why they deserve their spot.

Guards stationed outside a facility - Just because the grenade won't damage the walls doesn't mean there won't be damage to clean up, and explosions attract attention, in this case in the form of news and possibly the Knights depending on the ranking of the corp and how close they were to the property line or how many non-corp citizens might be in the area. Using grenades in a populated area is a PR nightmare. Now, if you're out in the middle of nowhere, that's another story, especially if you're talking Zero Zone levels.

Guard that goes dynamite fishing in his spare time - No. Just no. The guy would be fired, without question, if he started bringing his 'toys' from home to work and used them on the job. That's the kind of thing that gets you labeled as a security liability, not for the least reason that you might get taken in by the Knights going to and from work.

Gangs in the Barrens - Gangs still have stuff, and most of them don't like causing explosions on their turf. Not only because it damages their stuff, and potentially kills people they could get protection money from, but also because it attracts too much attention. Oh, I'm not talking about the Knights, though that's possible. I'm talking about other gangs, or, worse, syndicates. Even the Halloweeners are more likely to throw molotovs than actual grenades, and bullets are cheaper than grenades.

Police in the Barrens - What police? If the Knights are going into the Barrens, then there's a major operation in the works, which means there will be cameras. So flash-bangs and smoke are the limit, because even blowing up SINless is bad PR if people see it on the evening news.

Robbed-twice-before shopkeeper - And why would he blow up his own store? Especially with him in it? Did you even think about these before putting them down? The shopkeeper isn't going to reach for a grenade, but for a shotgun or assault rifle, which is more than enough to intimidate most gangers.

Sadistic gang lieutenant - Guy won't have dogs for long. But I hate to tell you, a true sadist wouldn't go for grenades, or anything else that kills quick. A sadist enjoys inflicting pain, not killing. A psychotic enjoys killing, and even they usually have other methods they prefer than grenades. There just isn't the same satisfaction as there is with a blade or a gun, making the person beg.

SWAT - No. Just no. Live grenades are NOT part of the SWAT playbook, sorry. Only time SWAT uses explosives is when they need to be on the other side of a wall in a hurry, which is why they have things like det cord and cutting charges. Then you throw in some flash-bangs and storm the place. This is the same problem as with your Police example above. SWAT will put down people who resist, sure, but their job is to try and get arrests, which not only make good PR, but also provide potential information about what the criminals were doing. SWAT may throw flash-bangs, tear gas, and smoke grenades like party favors, but HE or frag grenades? No.

[Noble Drake]

Also, when exactly does it make sense for NPCs to use grenades?

• Rookie ganger with something to prove.
• Guards that are stationed outside the building (concrete walls have 32 soak dice and can withstand 11 damage without getting a hole in them).
• Guard that likes to go dynamite-fishing in his free time, but doesn't have access to dynamite since that book isn't out yet.
• Gangs in the Barrens.
• Police in the Barrens.
• Robbed-twice-before shopkeeper in the Barrens.
• Sadistic gang lieutenant that likes to play fetch with his dogs using grenades.
• "Their insurance will cover it" SWAT team.

Rookie Ganger: Hope he's got a naturally good arm... probably safer for him to buy a gun than hope he has a good enough arm to not blow himself up.

Guards outside a building, and that like dynamite fishing: Guards don't tend to have special gear assigned unless it is mandatory for their job/post, because companies function on budgets (though some are very high budgets) and adding grenades to the armory stores just because the few guys outside could use them without damaging any company property except exterior landscaping/decoration.

Gangs in the Barrens: I'll give you that one, though I'd expect gangers not to be the most accurate with grenades and not to have a very plentiful supply.

Police in the Barrens: Grenades imply getting out of their armored assault vehicles long enough to get shot at or have gangers throwing grenades at them too... which I really don't see happening too often - especially as regards the PCs having grenades thrown their way.

Barrens Shopkeeper: So pissed about being robbed that his new plan is to blow up his own store? That goes beyond desperation into complete idiocy... there are lots of violent escalation options for protection of his livelihood that don't involve blowing his own store up as a default result of their use.

Sadistic Ganger: perfect example, but it sounds like something that said ganger would have a widespread reputation about and thus the PCs would have ample warning to prepare as many anti-grenade strategies as possible before dealing with the sicko.

SWAT team: I think the heavy armor and assault weapons is "enough", and that the team wouldn't be throwing grenades around when it means a chance at structural failure, and because their job usually isn't as simple as "kill or maim everyone in the building"

[ZeConster]

And if you're ducking down alleyways (otherwise known as lovely killzones where anything from grenades to combat magic to automatic weapons on suppressive fire can lay waste to you) or basically anywhere that isn't an open plain then you deserve what happens.

Fixed that for you.

As for your numbers, 24P/+5, with a 12 Armor and 5 Body means you're rolling 22 dice to resist. On average, you'll get 7 hits, with just your normal dice. That drops things to 17 damage. Rerolling failures with Edge gives you 15 dice to roll, which gives you an average of 5 more hits, dropping things to 12 damage taken. Without counting things that give extra boxes on your condition modifier, that puts you at one overflow. Down, but not dead yet. All it takes is a bit more luck with the dice than simply getting 1/3 of the dice rolled coming up hits, and you're still up, even if you're in a drekload of pain.

Or you can work with "rerolling failures gives you a 4/9 chance of no-hit for each die, so that's a 5/9 chance of a hit, so 22 dice gives you 12.22 hits on average", rather than taking a detour, or you can assume that if I say there's "a 70.57% of dropping you even with using Edge for a reroll", those odds are correct. 22 soak dice, rerolling failures, gives you a 70.57% of scoring at most 13 hits, which means 11+ damage, which means a filled Physical Condition Monitor, which means you go KO. And yes, I did say dropping you, not killing you.

Here's the thing. Shadowrun isn't a 'nice' game world, like D&D is.

There's a vast difference between "not 'nice'" and "expect to frequently die through no fault of your own and have to start over at starting level".



On a side note: man, this argument must have gotten heated if people are rebutting my obvious-tongue-in-cheek examples along with the more serious ones. Anyway, I guess I should respond to some of them.

Rookie Ganger: considering how dumb people can get, a rookie ganger just might buy a relatively cheap grenade to feel macho and be dumb enough to use it.

Guards outside the building: as long as the facility has a bit of empty space and then a fence around it, especially if it's on corp turf, it's entirely possible.

Dynamite-fishing guard: joke, people, joke.

Shopkeeper: again, joke - although a shopkeeper might be pissed enough to grab a live grenade if someone tries to rob him for the umpteenth time and go "you shoot me, you die too, fragger!", it's not something runners will ever encounter (well, except maybe if they're really unsatisfied with their run payments, in which case I suggest the GM goes to A4BG for advice). Although I admit you almost realized I was joking, Mirikon: kudos for that.

Sadistic ganger: tongue, say hello to cheek (although you're right that it would make an interesting named NPC, Noble Drake).

SWAT team: if you don't have any hostages, you've already killed one or more cops/guards, and their leader is having a bad day (maybe someone scratched his car, or he spilled soykaf on his last clean suit, or he really doesn't want to explain to Joe's wife that the runners that killed Joe got away), it's possible, really.

[Dracain]

All I' saying is that I think grenades should still follow the same rules as everything else and allow a chance to, at the very least dodge out of the way, and I am obviously not the only one who thinks that way.  You get a reaction against bullets, which are going a hell of a lot faster then a thrown grenade, so something as simple as a test to see if you hit the deck or dive out of the way to reduce damage is perfectly within the realms of what is reasonable.  There are plenty of other tools to kill PCs if they "deserve it", but grenades and grenade launchers are weapons, and as the rules apply right now, they are OP from a simple mechanical standpoint.  We don't need to look at the narrative, we need to see that as it is written, these have the potential to be used over other weapons, simply because they are more effective.  I know that in a lot of campaigns, that shit may not fly, but for those who DO want to run a pink mohawk campaign, or for those running a campaign in an area where explosions can go off like crazy and no one gives a crap (like the DMZ, for instance), then the game should be balanced so that those people can also use these rules without needing to house rule.  I am not saying grenades should be weak, just that they should be within a more balanced level.  With all that said, we can't forget that it seems like there was rules for defending against blasts on page 190, they just are VERY unclear about it. 

[Noble Drake]

On a side note: man, this argument must have gotten heated if people are rebutting my obvious-tongue-in-cheek examples along with the more serious ones

It is very difficult to tell that something on the internet was said as a joke, especially when it is something said in response to a serious question.

I was seriously curious why grenades occur commonly enough as to be a concern, because in my games they tend to only come into play when the PCs have decided to out-right destroy someone or somewhere, which comes with its own "balancing factor" in the way of the poor rep it causes, and now with SR5's Karma rewards system including a modifier for the "should make you feel like a bastard" activities.

Basically, Sure grenades are a terrifyingly efficient way to kill people... but runners aren't meant to be all about the "easy kill", they are meant to have complex morals such as to feel bad about the potential wife/kids left without because of the guard they just killed.