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Discovered more availability dissonance between a weapon and it's ammo

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PeterSmith

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« Reply #15 on: <02-02-13/1741:45> »
Whether reality would bear this up is unknown, because I can't find a place that's actually tried "bullet control", but take it for what you will.

Try the United States of America. I can own a blackpowder, muzzle-loading weapon without restriction. Why? The National Firearms Act does not classify that specific class of weapon as a firearm. An example of this would be a cannon. If I were to take that perfectly legal cannon and load it with a shell that explodes now I find myself with a legal problem. The shell is classified as a destructive device and is illegal to own without the appropriate federal license. At $400/item just for the tax stamp the price for the shells are crazy.
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Sengir

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« Reply #16 on: <02-02-13/1802:34> »
Yes, private possession. I never mentioned anything about private, corporate, police, or military possession, did I?
Corporations or state actors do not have SINs, so obviously your tidbit about "legitimate, SIN-tracking methods" referred to individual possession. It happens...

Mirikon

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« Reply #17 on: <02-02-13/1830:06> »
Please, go educate yourselves on how expensive and "Restricted" ammo really is. If you already know this fine, but perspective never killed anyone.
Yes, because nothing on the Internet skirts local legal issues. </sarcasm>

Corporations or state actors do not have SINs, so obviously your tidbit about "legitimate, SIN-tracking methods" referred to individual possession. It happens...
Um, Sengir, corporations do give SINs to their employees, if they're AA or higher, and if they're lower, then they make sure their employees have SINs from the state. And you certainly need (or will be issued) a SIN to be part of the police or a national military.
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Mäx

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« Reply #18 on: <02-02-13/1928:02> »
No need to change the availabilities. Afterall, without ammo, a gun is just a fancy club. Make it hard to get ammo outside of legitimate, SIN-tracking methods, and even if the gun is easy enough to get hold of, you won't find people going crazy with the trigger against you. Meanwhile, if you make the ammo, you can always toss in a few clips as part of the deal when working with runners.
But high power ammo isn't "hard to get ammo outside of legitimate, SIN-tracking methods", it's totally illegal to own, thats massively different think.
And  gun that can only fire such ammo, shouldn't be something you can get with a licence, as that doesn't make any sense. Who the heck would sell(and who the heck would hand out licences for) guns that can't be legally used at all.
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Aryeonos

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« Reply #19 on: <02-02-13/2015:03> »
Okay here we go, ammo, high powered or "Milspec" or not, isn't that hard to come across. The ammo shouldn't be F, unless it has no purpose other than military application, like explosive ammo or tungsten flechettes. High powered ammo should just be a modifier to ammo that increases its price by a bit and its availability by +2 or +4. It's not the legal issues I'm trying to point out so much as how stupidly common bullets are, home defense magnum JHP ammo or just regular bullets, some are going to be harder to come across and be marketed towards law enforcement but bullets are cheap and ubiquitous.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #20 on: <02-02-13/2133:54> »
No need to change the availabilities. Afterall, without ammo, a gun is just a fancy club. Make it hard to get ammo outside of legitimate, SIN-tracking methods, and even if the gun is easy enough to get hold of, you won't find people going crazy with the trigger against you. Meanwhile, if you make the ammo, you can always toss in a few clips as part of the deal when working with runners.
But high power ammo isn't "hard to get ammo outside of legitimate, SIN-tracking methods", it's totally illegal to own, thats massively different think.
And  gun that can only fire such ammo, shouldn't be something you can get with a licence, as that doesn't make any sense. Who the heck would sell(and who the heck would hand out licences for) guns that can't be legally used at all.
Why is it different? If it is totally illegal for civilians to own, then would it not be hard to get outside of sources with corporate or military connections? Restricting the flow of ammo, especially for weapons that only take that kind of ammo, means that you can equip people with guns when they work for you, but it is harder for those guns to be used against you in the future, since you are the one who makes the ammo. Meaning that the weapons themselves are less likely to 'fall off the back of a truck' than ones that can take more types of ammo, so these higher end weapons are going to be relatively rare when you're facing off against 'terrorist groups' (read: Shadowrunners, organized crime, and the like). It is a subtle means of control to keep people in line with your interests, much like how transport fees on, say, food that go up and down with the 'instability' of an area may persuade locals to toe the line.

Okay here we go, ammo, high powered or "Milspec" or not, isn't that hard to come across. The ammo shouldn't be F, unless it has no purpose other than military application, like explosive ammo or tungsten flechettes. High powered ammo should just be a modifier to ammo that increases its price by a bit and its availability by +2 or +4. It's not the legal issues I'm trying to point out so much as how stupidly common bullets are, home defense magnum JHP ammo or just regular bullets, some are going to be harder to come across and be marketed towards law enforcement but bullets are cheap and ubiquitous.
Bullets may be, Aryeonos, especially in the real world. However, we're talking about a game world, where there are controls in place to keep people from doing stupid things like modding an assault cannon to FA and making it belt-fed. As for why the ammunition is controlled, read above. Perfectly legit, in-game reason for ammo to be restricted more heavily than weapons. It is another level of the corps trying to control the criminal element. If you accept that criminals are going to get guns, regardless, then by making certain types of ammunition more difficult to obtain, you can coerce people into getting less threatening ammo for their weapons, or force them to be more particular with how they use their ammo. It isn't about the ammo itself, but about trying to control behavior.
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Aryeonos

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« Reply #21 on: <02-02-13/2337:10> »
I understand that concept, but you have to understand that putting laws in place on anything isn't going to stop people from getting their hands on it, and something as easy to manufacture like ammo is going to have a thriving underground economy. Just like regular business on common items like soda or popcorn, they will undercut eachother and still make a killing on items that cost relatively little to produce. Now that goes for simple things like FMJ, JHP, Gel Rounds, Capsule Rounds, Magnum ammo, and probably to some extent armour piercing rounds and flechette. Complex ammo that requires delicate chemistry or electronics like EX (Don't know why the whole bullet is explosive and not just cored.) Stick'n'Shock, sensor rounds, and the like are obviously going to stay expensive no matter what. But I don't buy for a second that an FMJ bullet of normal load will( Or should ) cost more than a nuyen for anything but special large rifle ammo, or slugs.
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Prodigy

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« Reply #22 on: <02-03-13/0101:44> »
California, of all places, has a pretty effective ammo control system. Law requires people to get fingerprinted when buying ammo. It's not illegal to buy ammo, but investigators can see "hey, this felon bought ammo" and start to look into if he illegally has a weapon. Because ammo is legal, a black market for ammo hasn't evolved (yet). So it is easier to get a black market gun than black market ammo.

This is recent. We will see if the black market responds like I think it probably will, which is just to have a legal citizen buy ammo and just sell it to a felon on the DL. Kinda like people that buy cigarettes for minors.

Mäx

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« Reply #23 on: <02-03-13/0618:43> »
Why is it different? If it is totally illegal for civilians to own, then would it not be hard to get outside of sources with corporate or military connections? Restricting the flow of ammo, especially for weapons that only take that kind of ammo, means that you can equip people with guns when they work for you, but it is harder for those guns to be used against you in the future, since you are the one who makes the ammo. Meaning that the weapons themselves are less likely to 'fall off the back of a truck' than ones that can take more types of ammo, so these higher end weapons are going to be relatively rare when you're facing off against 'terrorist groups' (read: Shadowrunners, organized crime, and the like). It is a subtle means of control to keep people in line with your interests, much like how transport fees on, say, food that go up and down with the 'instability' of an area may persuade locals to toe the line.
But it's not hard to get for criminals, they just buy from black market, same as they buy the guns.
Where as a civilian can get a permit for the gun no problem, but he can't legally posses ammo for it at all, how in the world can you claim that makes anykind of sense what so ever..
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Prodigy

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« Reply #24 on: <02-03-13/0631:14> »
Also, although it is possible, I can't build my own gun from scratch. I can, however, make my own ammo (and do). Custom loaded ammo is a pretty big hobby here in Texas. So I would have to agree with Max, ammo shouldn't be forbidden if you can own the gun. I can make .50 caliber ammo. I cant own a Browning M2.

Mäx

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« Reply #25 on: <02-03-13/0722:59> »
So I would have to agree with Max, ammo shouldn't be forbidden if you can own the gun.
One little think, my position was that the gun shouldn't be R when it can only fire F rated ammo.

But really everything would have been so much better if it would have been something like this:
"High-Power Chambering: This modification reinforces the chamber of a gun so it can handle higher pressures generated by High-Power ammo(also know as magnum loads)"
"High-Power ammo: High.Power ammo uses a more powerful(and expensive) propellant that normal ammo, this add +1 to DV, +4 availebility and +50% to price of the ammo, high-power ammo is available in all the same variants as normal ammo(except S&S and capsule rounds), if High-Power ammo is fired from a gun without High-Power chambering there is a chance it might break the gun, roll one dice on a result of 1 the gun breaks."
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Sengir

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« Reply #26 on: <02-03-13/0749:15> »
Corporations or state actors do not have SINs, so obviously your tidbit about "legitimate, SIN-tracking methods" referred to individual possession. It happens...
Um, Sengir, corporations do give SINs to their employees, if they're AA or higher, and if they're lower, then they make sure their employees have SINs from the state. And you certainly need (or will be issued) a SIN to be part of the police or a national military.
...all of which is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If something can only be possessed by the military, then the military owns it and not the personnel (or do you believe pilots own their jets?). Therefore it is clear as day that your claim of "F" items being available through "legitimate, SIN-tracking methods" referred to individual possession, which does not happen, end of discussion.

As a hint for the future, if you are wrong either admit it or let the issue rest. Protesting you were right after all depending "on what the meaning of the words 'is' is" for days only makes you like foolish and brings far more attention to your mistake than it could possibly have gained otherwise.

Mirikon

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« Reply #27 on: <02-03-13/0811:25> »
But it's not hard to get for criminals, they just buy from black market, same as they buy the guns.
Where as a civilian can get a permit for the gun no problem, but he can't legally posses ammo for it at all, how in the world can you claim that makes anykind of sense what so ever..
Yes, they have the gun. But without ammo, it is a fancy club, and therefore not dangerous. As far as criminals go, the more restrictive the supply, the greater the cost, and the harder it is to acquire. That's basic economics. So yes, for specialty weapons like were being discussed earlier, it makes a lot of sense. Because unlike the what the people who are going on and on about how they can make their own bullets, the original post is talking about high tech, highly specialized ammo.

...all of which is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If something can only be possessed by the military, then the military owns it and not the personnel (or do you believe pilots own their jets?). Therefore it is clear as day that your claim of "F" items being available through "legitimate, SIN-tracking methods" referred to individual possession, which does not happen, end of discussion.

As a hint for the future, if you are wrong either admit it or let the issue rest. Protesting you were right after all depending "on what the meaning of the words 'is' is" for days only makes you like foolish and brings far more attention to your mistake than it could possibly have gained otherwise.
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Jane you ignorant slut.
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Sorry, but are you just deliberately misreading my words? I never said anything about the individuals owning the weapons, or the ammo. I never said anything about private possession. I was referring to police, corporate security, military forces, and others who are ISSUED the weapons and ammo. So please sit down and shut up. Thank you.
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Mäx

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« Reply #28 on: <02-03-13/0827:21> »
But it's not hard to get for criminals, they just buy from black market, same as they buy the guns.
Where as a civilian can get a permit for the gun no problem, but he can't legally posses ammo for it at all, how in the world can you claim that makes anykind of sense what so ever..
Yes, they have the gun. But without ammo, it is a fancy club, and therefore not dangerous. As far as criminals go, the more restrictive the supply, the greater the cost, and the harder it is to acquire. That's basic economics. So yes, for specialty weapons like were being discussed earlier, it makes a lot of sense. Because unlike the what the people who are going on and on about how they can make their own bullets, the original post is talking about high tech, highly specialized ammo.
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Jane you ignorant slut.
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So your honestly claiming that you see a police(ir who ever does it in any given part of SR world) handing out permits for guns that can't be legally used as making sense.
Thats so utterly ridiculous i can't even think of words to describe it accurately.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #29 on: <02-03-13/0908:44> »
Again, why wouldn't it make sense? The local government gets to sell permits for things, which gives them a record of who (legally) has these weapons. If the ammo is also harder to come by, then when one of these weapons is used in a bad way, you send cops to the people registered as having the gun, just to make sure it hasn't been 'misplaced', and send them around to the few arms dealers who can handle specialized ammo like that. Even if they can't get enough to make an arrest, simply having a surveillance van tailing them is going to make the arms dealers twitchy enough that they either will get out of selling that kind of ammo, or will be making it much tougher on their customers to cover the cost of avoiding the scrutiny. Either way, it acts as an active deterrent to keep the weapons from being misused.
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