[Glitch]

Greetings, all.

I got into Shadowrun when I was in middle school, then reengaged with it when I was in college. One thing that has always remained constant for me, though, is my attitude towards Lofwyr.

*****WARNING!  HERE BE UNMARKED SPOILERS!***********

Every character I've ever run has been scared to death of Lofwyr, if only because he is basically Kaiser Soze: he controls the largest corporation in the Sixth World and he never forgets a slight. Most bad guys can either be bargained with, reasoned with, or outright killed. None of these apply to Lofwyr: screw with him, accidentally or otherwise, and he will screw with you -- it's not a question of if but when. My characters are, in general, willing to go head-to-head against just about anybody -- but not Lofwyr!

At the same time, he's fascinating. Though everything he does seems to be rooted in the coldest, most ruthless pragmatism, Dunkelzhan seemed to regard him with enough esteem to will him the Jewel of Memory. I've never known Dunkelzahn to be flat wrong about anybody -- so what did Dunkelzahn see in Lofwyr? Why not bequeath the Jewel of Memory to someone else, like Hestaby or Celedyr? Was it just Lofwyr's prestige and power, or was it something else?

Also: does Lofwyr have a sense of humor, or is he all business? Does he have any sentimental weaknesses?  A kitten, perhaps?  Does he care about anyone? And how did he feel about Dunkelzahn's bequest?

Many thanks!

[Crimsondude]

He doesn't like anyone, trust anyone, think he needs anyone, and is basically a one-dimensional social darwinian asshole.


His response to being challenged by Ghostwalker for the Jewel and title of Loremaster was basically, who else would he give it to? Everyone else is, to Lofwyr, his inferior.

[CanRay]

Think about the most stereotypical, arrogant, hideously-moralistic CEO from any media you choose to peruse.

Lofwyr thinks they're all posers and wannabes to him.

Also note:  It's been found out that a lot of media has had to TONE DOWN what those Stereotypes are IRL, due to it being unbelievable!

[Glitch]

So you guys are telling me that he has no depth of character at all?  No higher motivation? No deeper emotional resonance? No sense of humor? That he is, essentially, a 100% flat character who will always, always, ALWAYS act in ways that are best for Lofwyr, acknowledging no other motives or goals whatsoever?

I'm... disappointed. =(

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

No, just short-sighted.

Understand that 'what is best for Lofwyr' changes from day to day.  Lofwyr isn't Aden, relatively isolating him(?)self, or Alamais, basically thinking of everything but dragons as food and every other dragon as competition or minion.  Lofwyr desires dominance; he desires control.  He desires safety for himself first, safety for his minions (generally) second, and utter destruction of his enemies third.  Right now, those enemies are generally meta/human or draconic, but here's the thing: what is best for Lofwyr as the threats start tilting towards the supernatural?

Realize that even if Lofwyr gets all cute-and-fuzzy with someone or something, there will be a motive.  That motive may be leverage, it may be for an opportunity, it may be because Gold Snout sees in that geneline something that could be powerful six generations down the line.  Lofwyr, in SR time and IMO, is building economic power so that he can use it to build scientific power so that he can use that to utterly destroy the Horrors as they come across.  He's searching furiously for the Magic Bullet, that class of mystic item that can be used by a mundane, at range, and against a spirit/nightmare.

The Horrors wouldn't stand a chance.

[Glitch]

@Ouroboros:
Before I discuss your reply, I would like to posit the premise that it can be (and often is) very difficult to tell the difference between egoism and altruism. I'm not saying there aren't genuinely altruistic people out there, nor am I trying to imply that altruism doesn't exist. Rather: if I do something nice for people because I want to do nice things for people (or because I fundamentally care about people), is that altruism or egoism? You could argue it both ways, and I'm content to keep it at that.

Given the above premise, and given (as you astutely observed) that the safety and success of Lofwyr is always his number-one motive, then why would Lofwyr even bother searching for a magic bullet against Horrors?  I mean, if you acknowledge Earthdawn as canon, then the Horrors can be stopped, successfully, via kaers. In order to ensure Lofwyr's safety and success, all HE has to do is build himself the most bad*ss kaer (or equivalent) the world has ever seen.

Granted: when the storm passes, there will be nothing to DO. Furthermore, depending on the destructive capabilities of the Horrors, the planetary biosphere might be irrevocably damaged -- so preserving that might be on his radar screen somewhere (in which case, his interests expand considerably).

Does that jive with what you know?

[CanRay]

He's searching furiously for the Magic Bullet...

Has he checked JFK's body?

[DarkLloyd]

...:SNIP: 
I mean, if you acknowledge Earthdawn as canon, then the Horrors can be stopped, successfully, via kaers. In order to ensure Lofwyr's safety and success, all HE has to do is build himself the most bad*ss kaer (or equivalent) the world has ever seen.
...:SNIP:

Yeah....That was before technology changed the game. Nukes and Thor shots and nanite weapons....etc etc etc
What?! You don't think the Horrors aren't gonna twist tech to their purposes too? I really don't think Caers are gonna cut it this time. This time around It will be for all the marbles.
At least here on the planet. We could live in no mana-sphere habitats in space.......

[Crimsondude]

There's a very straightforward section in the Game Information for Dragons of the Sixth World about Lofwyr. There is no one alive who even comes close because his writeup and description in DotSW basically turned him from a character into an abstraction thinner than a Randian strawman (as one-dimensional as a monowhip). The closest and most recently I can think of is maybe Steve Jobs if you remove any humanity from him—the myth of Jobs, not the actual man.

[CanRay]

*Gets twitchy with my Ronson around the Randian Strawman*

[TheNarrator]

Unfortunately, I don't think that there's any info on Lofwyr in Earthdawn that might shed additional light on him. He was only mentioned in passing as the bother of Almaise who kicked him out of what is now Germany.


Looking at that same write-up in DotSW, a couple things jump out at me:

-Unlike his brother Alamais (and the infamous Sirrurg), Lofwyr is not, strictly speaking, a dragon supremacist. He believes that respect is the due of any being of great personal power and influence, not that dragons deserve it by default.

-His view of the world is feudalistic and hierarchical. In his mind, "it is the duty of the enlightened sovreign to guide the lives of his inferiors, to lead by example (and to reap the rewards)."

-His greatest flaw is hubris. He's a control freak and a micromanager, because he can rarely trust others with responsibility

-He's vindictive, but you knew that.

-He believes that the strong deserve to rule.

-Lofwyr views every challenge and obstacle as a chance to test and hone himself.

Of course, most of that boils down to "selfish asshole with a huge ego," but it's something.

Then there's one other little bit, tucked away at the end of the "Lofwyr's Goals" section. His new role as Loremaster (and more importantly, how he got that role: Hestaby beat him in the Rite of Succession but let him keep the title and the Jewel of Memory) is causing him to rethink his life, and he's been delving into the ancient draconic knowledge stored in the Jewel of Memory looking for answers.


We also had a thread compiling what we knew about Lofwyr a few months back.

[JustADude]

Given that S-K is the biggest of the Big Ten, last I saw a pecking order, and has the best benefits packages in the Sixth World... Well, I'm having a hard time seeing what's so bad about Lofwyr's style.

So what if he's explicitly treating his people well to buy their souls? This is the Sixth World. Your soul is worth chicken-scratch, assuming you can even find a buyer. Getting top dollar for it from S-K is the best bargain most wage-slaves could ever dream of.

As for Old Golden Snout himself... yeah, he's massively egotistical and vindictive, but there are plenty of people who are just as egotistical and vindictive who don't look out for their people nearly as well as Lofwyr does. He's a jerk, but he's a jerk that takes care of his own. Not perfect but, again, he's still better than most.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Given the above premise, and given (as you astutely observed) that the safety and success of Lofwyr is always his number-one motive, then why would Lofwyr even bother searching for a magic bullet against Horrors?  I mean, if you acknowledge Earthdawn as canon, then the Horrors can be stopped, successfully, via kaers. In order to ensure Lofwyr's safety and success, all HE has to do is build himself the most bad*ss kaer (or equivalent) the world has ever seen.

What the heck do you think a dragon lair is, but the most badass kaer the world has ever seen?

The thing is, kaers and dragon lairs do not stop Horrors.  Oh, sure, it keeps them from getting to you, but the next time you go out to play, hey, look, Horrors!!  As pointed out, This Is Not Lofwyr's Style.  As the time comes, I fully expect him to be putting more and more research money into How To Wax Horrors Permanently.  In fact, I have no doubt that he's already setting up labs for just that sort of thing.  Oh, it doesn't get the big fanfare the way Ares Bughunters are; Lofwyr likes fanfare only when he can control it, and only when it's good for him, and only when he is perfectly sure he's not only holding a trump card, he's holding all the trump cards.  I'd be willing to bet Betan dollars to sand that there are some mighty nasty S-K bug-hunter teams going in and doing Bad Things in the invae home planes.

Because you don't win a war by just forting up.  You win by destroying your enemy's will to fight.  Or, in the case of an enemy who wants to eat you, eradicating your enemy.  And I'm sure that as DarkLloyd said, he's fully aware that it's now possible for even a fully-powered lair to be breached - which means that the need for a way to take the war to the Enemy is more necessary than ever.

[Wakshaani]

Lofwyr needs depth, yeah. He's less of a character these days and more of an ideal, a perfect cold-hearted machine that makes profit and crushes those who oppose it. To what ends? For what goal? Why, to make more money and to crush people, of course.

That's not enough, IMHO.

I kinda wonder about his personal beliefs and philosophy... what goes on inside his head? What makes him tick? Has he ever sired any children? I mean, he's a Great Dragon, and the Loremaster, so you'd think he'd be rollin' in dragon tail, but, have we ever seen that? We know that he *does* have a heart ... the infamous Firewings incident shows that, but does he care for anyone, or anything, other than himself? That, I dunno.

He's also interesting in that he's not the most physically powerful dragon (That probably goes to Sirrug), nor is he the most powerful magician (Hestaby, Ghostwalker, and Lung are in the running, there), nor is he seen as the wisest ... but he's probably the *smartest*. Makes me wonder if he isn't a dragon-nerd, always picked on when younger who took the time to make a battle plan, bulked himself up like Carrot Top, and then came out as Lowfyr 2.0 to get over on the ones who used to make his life miserable.

But that's pure speculation, so.

[CanRay]

Take into consideration that most of a person's personality, when it comes to business, is seen in their short- and long-term planning.

And short-term planning for a dragon involves CENTURIES. 

That said, some nice PR about him and the arts wouldn't be remiss.