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improved Invisibility

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wolfrider66

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« on: <09-22-12/0919:32> »
Lets talk improved invisibility from a GMs standpoint. How can a player abuse it and what should I be looking out for as GM? I have a real Major in the US Army playing a mystic adept who has improved invisibility. He is a brilliant tactician. I will need all of my skill to make the game strategically challenging for him.  He will use improved invisibility relentlessly so I need to be ready.

Also what tech can defeat the spell? It warps light but not sound, smell or touch right?
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JustADude

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« Reply #1 on: <09-22-12/0949:20> »
Bingo. It also doesn't affect Ultrasound sensors, taste *shudder*, Assensing from Mages and Spirits, Matrix signals, or (at your discretion) the non-visible extremities of the EM spectrum... things like Ultra-Wideband Radar, Backscatter X-ray, T-Ray.

Mana Barriers and Wards will force him to take the spell down or set off a warning system, which will create its own set of issues.

Also, remember that devices don't get rolls, they have a Threshold. If he doesn't get more Net Hits than the Object Rating of the camera, it sees right through the Invisibility.

... ... ...

Oh, and on a meta-game level... make sure he spends the points on his Mental Attributes, and on his Knowledge Skills, to get the job done right. If his character has Logic 1, Intuition 1, and nothing remotely related to the word "Tactical" in his Knowledges, then it doesn't matter how brilliant he is, his character is still going to be a drooling putz and you should let him know he'll need to play the character accordingly.

On the flip side... if he spends the points on the Mental Attributes (Mind over Matter will come in handy here for the Logic -> Agility swap) then there's nothing wrong with him being able to dance circles around the security teams.
« Last Edit: <09-22-12/0951:49> by JustADude »
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TheNarrator

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« Reply #2 on: <09-22-12/0950:44> »
Lets talk improved invisibility from a GMs standpoint. How can a player abuse it and what should I be looking out for as GM? I have a real Major in the US Army playing a mystic adept who has improved invisibility. He is a brilliant tactician. I will need all of my skill to make the game strategically challenging for him.  He will use improved invisibility relentlessly so I need to be ready.

Also what tech can defeat the spell? It warps light but not sound, smell or touch right?

Radar Sensor cyberware and Ultrasound vision mode are both explicitly described as being able to overcome Invisibility spells.

No effect on motion sensors (which are ultrasound) or pressure sensors.

No effect on olfactory sensors or trained guard dogs.

Against anything with astral sight (mages using Astral Perception, spirits, etc.) it will if anything make the subject more visible.

Medicineman

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« Reply #3 on: <09-22-12/1023:29> »
And it Doesn't. Warp. Light.
Never !
or else it would be a Combat Spell !
(Sorry but whenever I read this I (How Do You translate :Ich krieg nen Hals ? I'm sick & tired of it ? ) it makes me kind of Irritated

Its just an illusion Spell vs Sight (Normal,Lowlight and Infrared) thats All
A Spirits Conceal Power is much more effective

HokaHey
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Orvich

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« Reply #4 on: <09-22-12/1205:59> »
It's a physical spell that effects cameras, not the mind of the watcher. It sure does bend light!

Medicineman

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« Reply #5 on: <09-22-12/1215:08> »
Oh, No, please don't....  ???  ::)
Could somebody explain Orvich
That neither invisibility nor improved Inv. really bends the Light.
I don't have the Stomache for it
 

with a Headshakin' Dance
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« Last Edit: <09-22-12/1217:00> by Medicineman »
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Orvich

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« Reply #6 on: <09-22-12/1225:42> »
Excuse me?

From SR4A, pg. 208:
Quote
Physical illusion spells create actual images or alter physical properties, such as light or sound.


From SR4A, pg. 209:
Quote
Improved invisibility creates an actual warping of light around the subject that affects technological sensors as well.

Improved invisibility bends light, so says the RAW, absolutely explicitly.

Medicineman

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« Reply #7 on: <09-22-12/1233:59> »
Sigh
I know that this was in the old Unerrated Version .It caused lots of Stress (not only  to me) in the newer errataed Version (the German one f.E. I don't know about englisch ones) it is omitted

and for a Good reason

with a Blind Dance
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foolofsound

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« Reply #8 on: <09-22-12/1238:55> »


That's SR4A. Not seeing any errata changing that. Love to hear that "good reason" for the alleged change.
« Last Edit: <09-22-12/1242:03> by foolofsound »

Orvich

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« Reply #9 on: <09-22-12/1240:14> »
No, that's SR4A. Shadowrun 4th, anniversary edition (with errata folded in).
Furthermore, reading the errata for SR4A found here, I'm not seeing any spell changes.

That really sounds like an error in translation from english to german to me, or some decision made by translators.

EDIT: And frankly, there isn't any other way for it to effect technological sensors without targeting those sensors and overcoming their resistance, and even then it'd be a big stretch to say that magic can go in and erase selectively like that. I get that it might be funky for something to completely bend light around you (as then you'd be in the dark, unable to see), but it's not an unreasonable quasi-scientific explanation for the magic.
« Last Edit: <09-22-12/1242:17> by Orvich »

Medicineman

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« Reply #10 on: <09-22-12/1249:28> »
That really sounds like an error in translation from english to german to me, or some decision made by translators.
No its not
Pegasus gets an OK for every Erratta they produce .They don't decide a change on their own

Love to hear that "good reason" for the alleged change.
If You cast Invisibility and it would bend the Light it would render the victim Blind (No Lightwaves that reach the Eye = no Vision)
so it would effekctively be a Combat Spell

HougH!
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Orvich

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« Reply #11 on: <09-22-12/1258:53> »
It would, assuming that magically doing so is depriving those who are under it of light waves. Illusion spells are already capable of creating images/light/mental images, why not extend that to the person under the invisibility? Furthermore, invisibility is not a perfect spell. It does not perfectly remove all traces (of visibility) from the target. Therefore, it does not perfectly bend light around them. It simply does so enough to make them harder to see.

The operative action of an inbisibility spell must be the removal of stimulus, because that's what the drain is based on.  In other words, you aren't creating an overmasking image of nothing, because that (in a philosophical way) is not what the drain is based on. Nothing in that says that you aren't simultaneously as part of the effect creating images on the 'inside' of the invisibility that give insight into the world around. It just means that the primary action of the spell.

There are a lot of non-English-as-primary-language players of Shadowrun, which is fantastic. But in the english version of a primarily-english published game, the rules say (after several revisions of the game), that Invisibility bends light, see quotes above. If a third party translator makes an errata (even an approved one), that's great too, but the mainstream of the game hasn't changed.

 Houseruling the spell to do something else is fine, but according to what I'm reading it bends light, and magic has been known to do sillier things. Heck, the magical movement spells (like slow) have nothing to do with force, they just deal directly with mass. To some extent, you already have to suspend disbelief to use the pseudo-science of magic.


EDIT: It could copy all light coming in one all sides and emit it out in the opposite direction. Granted, that's functionally the same thing, and it feels like it'd be a more complicated active phenomenon as opposed to bending the 'tracks' of that light, and then simply extending your own senses, or providing yourself a peep hole or something of the like. That would also explain how it's only a negative modifier instead of a perfect effect.
« Last Edit: <09-22-12/1302:20> by Orvich »

Medicineman

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« Reply #12 on: <09-22-12/1310:14> »
Oh, No, please don't....  ???  ::)
Could somebody explain Orvich
That neither invisibility nor improved Inv. really bends the Light.
I don't have the Stomache for it
 

with a Headshakin' Dance
Medicineman
As I  allready wrote
I'm not really interested in this discussion which already goes in the wrong direction
You're already trying to explain  something that I know is wrong.
with explanations that are (was heißt an den Haaren herbeigezogen...?)  ...Made up ?
 
And I doubt that my english is good enough to express what I Mean
So I leave the task  to someone else

with a final Dance
Medicineman

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farothel

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« Reply #13 on: <09-22-12/1429:09> »

Radar Sensor cyberware and Ultrasound vision mode are both explicitly described as being able to overcome Invisibility spells.

No effect on motion sensors (which are ultrasound) or pressure sensors.

No effect on olfactory sensors or trained guard dogs.

Against anything with astral sight (mages using Astral Perception, spirits, etc.) it will if anything make the subject more visible.

That's why you also want a silence spell, and flexible signature (or what it's called to hide you on the astral) to make sure they don't see you.

And to add my two cents to the discussion on improved invisibility: if you don't want it to bend light, you can have the spell analyse the incoming light and sent out light in counterphase, therefore nullifying the light coming onto the object or person you want to make invisible.  As you move around, it has to re-analyse and resent the light and therefore you can be found, especially by people trained to look for this.

Or we can just say that it's magic and it can do some amazing things and leave it at that.  :)
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TheNarrator

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« Reply #14 on: <09-22-12/1528:39> »
That's why you also want a silence spell, and flexible signature (or what it's called to hide you on the astral) to make sure they don't see you.
Flexible signature lets you forge someone else's astral signature with your spells. Masking let's you disguise yourself with a different aura. But other than the Concealment spirit power and good old fashioned Stealth skills, there isn't any way to keep them from seeing you in the astral.