[wolfrider66]

Since improved invisibility is marked down as type P (physical) it can affect non-living targets(objects?) according to this:

SR4A p203
TYPE
Spell Type is either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana spells affect
their targets through the mana that permeates the astral and physical
planes—affecting the target in a magical and spiritual manner that is
only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being.
Physical spells directly target the body; resistance relies on the target’s
Body attribute. Only mana spells can  affect astral forms. Either type of
spell may be used in the physical world, but mana spells cannot affect
non-living targets.

Does being a physical spell give it combat spell qualities without actually kicking it fully into the combat realm? Being new to the game it is natural for me to quote the book which , as proven says 'warps' the light. I surely did not know it was cause for a debate. That said why can't a physical spell manhandle light around a person or object. And before you answer, remember science can't be used to explain magic.

[TheNarrator]

And before you answer, remember science can't be used to explain magic.

That's not actually true. Magic is Shadowrun is still subject to the laws of physics, but draws matter and energy from sources previously unknown to science. Shamans and other traditions see magic as something spiritual, but hermetics study it as if it were a science. MIT&T is an Institute of Technology and Thaumaturgy.

Being new to the game it is natural for me to quote the book which , as proven says 'warps' the light. I surely did not know it was cause for a debate.

Neither did I, and I've been playing this game since the previous edition. I think this issue is to specific to Medicineman, as I've never heard anyone bring it up before.

That said why can't a physical spell manhandle light around a person or object.

It can. Mana illusions create the false impression of something in the target's mind. Physical illusions create an actual false image for eyes and cameras to see.

Does being a physical spell give it combat spell qualities without actually kicking it fully into the combat realm?

Manipulation spells can be used to harm people or place them in a situation to be harmed, despite not being Combat spells. Illusions can't hurt anyone, but they can trick someone into hurting themselves, such as by projecting the image of a bridge where there is only empty air.

Still, I think that Medicineman's concern that your could use Improved Invisibility to blind people is unfounded. The spell does not blind the caster or an ally when cast on them, so clearly the spell design includes measures to allow the target to continue to see. And this is not White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension with its "whatever you can justify" magic system; spells in SR have specific formulae and are not very malleable. You could no more will your Improved Invisibility spell to not allow the target to still be able to see than you could will your Fireball spell to instead be cube-shaped.

For that matter, the nature of the spells function could be entirely different than what he's assuming. Rather than light being bent around the target, the target could be sheathed in an active camouflage effect similar to reuthenium chameleon suits, or light that would be absorbed by the target's body could instead be duplicated with the same trajectory. Both of these woudl fit with the nature of the spell as an "illusion" spell.

[Makki]

I think Medicineman's concern is, that the introductory paragraphs of the Illusion Spells chapter are actually contradictory.

Illusions can certainly cause harm
by manipulating the senses so a victim walks into traffic or off a high
building, for example, but they cannot directly cause damage.

Physical illusion spells create actual images or
alter physical properties, such as light or sound.

In my opinion, altering light and sound physically is no longer just fiddling with senses (and sensors), but is the realm of Manipulation spells. If a Physical Illusion can alter light, e.g. warp, it could potentially do things like channel it, too. Now we're talking beam weapons.

[JustADude]

In my opinion, altering light and sound physically is no longer just fiddling with senses (and sensors), but is the realm of Manipulation spells. If a Physical Illusion can alter light, e.g. warp, it could potentially do things like channel it, too. Now we're talking beam weapons.

The difference is the intensity of the effect.

It could certainly make a laser-pointer, or duplicate a security trip-laser so that the sensor never realizes it's broken, but when you start talking about laser-gun damage... well, that's why there's a Light element for the Elemental Damage spells.

[Glyph]

SR3's treatment of physical illusions was harder to understand, but made more sense - rather than actually bending light around a target, it created false sensory input.  With the current fluff, physical illusion spells belong more in the manipulation category of spells - but the manipulation category is bloated as it is.

My main area of confusion is what happens when a physical illusion spell gets successfully resisted.  Sure, you "realize it is an illusion",  but are you still unable to see what is behind the illusory wall of flames?  Are you unable to see the invisible being?  It kind of makes it a powerful spell, if a weak, easily resisted Force: 1 spell could still give people the modifiers for blind fire and let you sneak up on them!

Invisibility at least has a potential nerf in its description - it says it makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses, implying that the effect is not actually total invisibility.  So resisting it could mean you easily spot the slight shimmer in the air or the moving sihouette which is slightly off-center from the rest of the background.

But that still leaves the effect of things like trid phantasm up in the air.  In fact, why bother with trid phantasm?  Just use trid entertainment.  Sure, the illusion is obvious, but if all you want is to create some visual cover or hide some dangerous terraign features, it's still good.

I think in trying to simplify the rules (from the previous false sensory imput), they created a lot of potentially problematic areas.

[Noble Drake]

I think Medicineman's concern is...

I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.

Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.

[Medicineman]

I think Medicineman's concern is...

I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.

Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.

that is exactly what I meant  !
(I'd applause You . but thats not possible anymore.Ach, I'll do it anyway   )
this last Sentence is omitted in the  Errattas and for a good Reason

Hough!
Medicineman

[wolfrider66]

I think Medicineman's concern is...

I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.

Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.

that is exactly what I meant  !
(I'd applause You . but thats not possible anymore.Ach, I'll do it anyway   )
this last Sentence is omitted in the  Errattas and for a good Reason

Hough!
Medicineman

Oh-Oh-Oh, now I see what your saying...the guy with the spell on him would be blind because light is bending away from him. Not the people around him or the frikkin cameras. Don't know why my brain got stuck on blind viewers and not a blind spell target. Oh well chalk it up to the heavy amounts of medication being crammed down my throat on a daily basis for a very bad chronic pain disorder from Lyme disease.

Where can one get a hold of this Errattas?

[Noble Drake]

Where can one get a hold of this Errattas?

The German printings of the books, unfortunately for those of us with only a modicum of ability to read/speak German.

[wolfrider66]

Where can one get a hold of this Errattas?

The German printings of the books, unfortunately for those of us with only a modicum of ability to read/speak German.

My Daughter who is joining my game took German in high school, but I don't know her level of fluency in it. In the end though there is no need I understand how I will rule it in my game so I'm good. Thanks for the reply.

[Zilfer]

I think Medicineman's concern is...

I'd be more inclined to believe that Medicineman is having the same concern that has always been had about that particular spell entry: It has an explanation of how the spell works that 1) doesn't even need to be there because we can all just go "oh, it's magic so it just works," and 2) implies quite heavily that the spell not only renders the target invisible but also blind because that is how the description given (bending light around the spell target) would work out according to physics.

Basically, you drop that line about bending light and it causes zero problems - but leaving it in and taking it at its word actually causes problems.

that is exactly what I meant  !
(I'd applause You . but thats not possible anymore.Ach, I'll do it anyway   )
this last Sentence is omitted in the  Errattas and for a good Reason

Hough!
Medicineman

I'm going to put forward that, a mage will most likely have astral perception to see without needing photon's or sunglasses or contact's that will allow them to see in heat or any other vision they might be able to apply and I don't think the "bending the light" is a perfect camoflague since it only reduces the people's perception of you.... <.< I'm thinking more like Predator type cloaking which if you can see, then you can see slightly out of because it's probably not 100% perfect at bending all the light.

I'm sure you could let just enough light through your curving magic barrier to see. Anyways definately an interesting point brought up by you guys.

[TheNarrator]

Well, keep in mind that Improved Invisibility doesn't work perfectly. There's a threshold equal to the viewers' Intuition score. Which means that if you roll 4 hits on the spellcasting roll, then people with Intuition 4 or less won't notice you, but people with Intuition 5 presumably are alert enough to notice a Predator-style shimmer or something.

[Zilfer]

Actually Narrator I'm pretty sure they get a resistance roll or something like that.... sorry not resistance but perception roll with a - equal to the force of the spell (or rather the hits you obtained on the spell)

[Lucek]

Improved invisibility is so easy to beat. Pretty much any alternate form of seeing or improved sight will see right past it.

Oh and as for bending light A it's magic. B to be able to see everything around you all you need is your pupils not to be effected. Say 2 1/4" black circle floating in the air. That would fit pretty well with the text. There you aren't blind and you are just about invisible. After all improved invisibility isn't 100% perfect invisibility.

[TheNarrator]

Actually Narrator I'm pretty sure they get a resistance roll or something like that.... sorry not resistance but perception roll with a - equal to the force of the spell (or rather the hits you obtained on the spell)

Yeah, my memory was playing tricks on me there. To resist physical illusions it's an Intuition (+ Counterspelling) roll with a threshold equal to the hits on the spellcasting test. If you succeed, then presumably you spot the flaws in the illusion.