[Hermes]

One of my players have been abusing the rules of Shadowrun to his benefit.

He has driven away some of my players from my group, one of which is a good player, if given a chance to play and not debate rules all day.  I'm going to tell him that he has two strikes against him before he's booted from my group.  I've been keeping him away from a new player to Shadowrun, so we can keep her character around her concept and not generally optimize it.

So, how many abusive players have you kicked out?

[Ympulse]

When I was GMing for that other game, I started every campaign by saying that being a munchkin/rules lawyer would get them removed from the table quicker than a pizza at a frat house, and that Rule 0 (The GM is always right) is strongly enforced. We're here for fun and games, not debate and discourse.

I can't count how many "My character revolves around abusing this RAW mechanic" players I've told to go re-roll or GTFO.

[Hermes]

Yeah, he's turned my game into a mockery of what it's supposed to be.  Either intentionally, which is the case, or unintentionally.  One of my players discussed this with me and we are coming to the same conclusion.  He's usurping my game.

[Reaver]

Game is a corabative effort between all the players and the GM.

It is the players responsibility to drive the story forward.

It is the GMs responsibility to lay out the basis, plot, and hooks of the story, and dictate the events of the players' actions. 

Sadly, some players (and GMs too!!) fail to realize this, and expect it it to be all about them. Some willingly cheat, or hedge the system in their favor ignoring the spirit of the rules.

In over 25 years of GMing, I have kicked out about a dozen players for various reasons. Sometimes it's the only thing you can do. Other times, invoking GM fiat is the answer but do this wisely and across the spectrum (if the players can't, the baddies can't). Other times you can use their own concepts against them by building an antagonist from their own concept and unleashing it on them/him!

.......

If I might ask, what is this player doing exactly that is leading to the drama?

[Hermes]

RPing his character like he was Kal-El from Krypton.  In all honesty, he turned my Shadowrun game into the present DC Heroes RPG.  He's playing a PL14 Paragon in Shadowrun clothing.  The only things missing are heat vision, arctic breath, and super strength.  If we were playing Mutants and Masterminds, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But I do, and I tried to subtly tell him that he's gone out of bounds.

[Ympulse]

But I do, and I tried to subtly tell him that he's gone out of bounds.

This is personal experience, so YMMV, but players like that have always, with only one exception, been toxic to the group as a whole no matter how much 'suggesting' you as the GM do. I would tell him point-blank that he needs to knock it off or he'll be looking for a new group.

[Mantis]

Just chiming in to second the GTFO thread for abusive players. I've tried what you are trying with players before. Subtle hints don't work and sometimes even the F&*K NO outburst doesn't work either.  I haven't had the Kal-El level of abuse you describe but trolls with maxed body and armour when everyone else is around a 4 body were quite common, along with weapon foci for adepts at rating 6 and above. I never actually let these things into the game but the fight to keep them out just got to be too much. Easier to dump the player and find another who better suits the play style you are going for.
One thing I will suggest is to make sure everyone is on the same page when you start a new campaign or introduce a new player. Let them know what kind of power levels you are looking for and other things, like how desirable fights are or whether you are going Pink Mohawk or Mirror Shades and Trench Coat or something in between. Communication with the players and the GM are the easiest way to avoid this kind of power gaming and if it creeps in after you've all agreed how you are playing, they can't really complain if they get the boot.

[Reaver]

Sometimes I sit down with the player and get him to go through every little detail of it and how he thinks the RAW apply to his character. 95% of the time there is a flaw in their logic that you can use to bring them to heel. 5% of the time they actually have that "winning" combo... And I wield the nurf hammer. And sometimes a just show them the door regardless. I'm not sacrificing 5 people's enjoyment to appease the ego of 1.

Do what you gotta do to get the most enjoyment for everyone at the table and remember, you're not alone in having to boot someone! Most GMs have at one point or another.

[Cass100199]

Kill the character. He does it again, kill it again. At some point he leaves or gets the picture. Everyone else enjoys the constant splat.

[Critias]

I'm really curious about the specifics of what he's doing that's so horrible, but really, that's besides the point.  The point isn't how the player is being problematic, the point is that a player is being problematic.  Details are interesting to know, but fundamentally unimportant.  Once you've made up your mind that he's screwing up your game -- and you clearly have -- all that matters is that he's fucking up what's supposed to be a relaxing, pleasant, social experience.  By that point it doesn't matter what happened, or how, or who started it, or why, or anything else.  What matters is that one of you needs to stop showing up to the game, because otherwise BOTH of you will end up not having fun.

If it's your game and you're hosting, the decision's already made about which of you that will be.  It's your game.  He's gone. 

Kill the character. He does it again, kill it again. At some point he leaves or gets the picture. Everyone else enjoys the constant splat.

That's a pretty passive-aggressive way to handle the problem, and meanwhile (a) the game is being derailed, and (b) you've got to figure out why the rest of the group isn't getting murdered, too.  It's goofy. 

You cannot handle an out-of-game problem in-game.  You cannot handle an out-of-game problem in-game.  Not only doesn't it work, but it's retaliating against immaturity with immaturity.  Don't throw handfuls of dice and GM fiat at him until he goes away, that's just returning bullying with bullying.

Sit down and talk to the player like you're both grown-ups.  It's not that hard.  Tell him you don't like what he's doing, tell him his playstyle isn't fitting the feel you're going for, and ask him not to show up next week.  It's not the end of the world.  Just do it.  In the grand scheme of things, it's not that big a deal, so the best advice is to just handle it.  There's no need for hyperbole or melodrama, accusations of usurpation or corruption, and there's not REALLY any need for genuinely hurt feelings.  It's just a game.  The entire point of games is to have fun, and if that's not happening, you're doing BOTH of you a favor by not gaming with him any more.

Just bite the bullet and tell him you don't want him in the game any more.  Done.

[Leigion]

In all seriousness critias is right the fastest way to handle it is just tell him. Look i am done finish your beer/drink and go home. Its simple its to the point, dont make a big deal or go on about it. After he goes just take a smoke break or 5 what ever tell the players iam not dealing with "superman". When break is done, get back to the game and stay with the game dont let it derail because of what just happened.

Cass100109 does have a point. If you can stomach it  If you can actually kill him off and not the party. If you want that way I suggest Cops then increase to swat and heavys after he blasts a patrol. When he dies and remakes. As soon as power monger number 2 starts acting up again, bust out some bounties hes racked up with gangs/organized crime. His contacts dry up and the ones who will work with him are low loyalty and will sell him to the highest bidder. But i forwarn you, i have seen this quite a few times when you kill a "superman", watch his rolls cause he will start cheating hardcore the moment he starts taking damage. When he finally dies it gets ugly. You going to watch a grown man turn into a big little kid and throw a temper tantrum . Right at the temper tantrum pull the plug, kick him off the table.

Also, have you tried optional rules out the core book? I found many bring alot more balance to the game. I already mentioned this in a differnt post but if you can get a hold of "cyberpunk listen up you primitive screwheads" book, buy it Best GM book, talks about how to deal with problem players. Yes they even say after a couple talks and it still continues you need to kick him off the table you are going to lose more people if you dont.

[Hermes]

Also, have you tried optional rules out the core book? I found many bring alot more balance to the game. I already mentioned this in a differnt post but if you can get a hold of "cyberpunk listen up you primitive screwheads" book, buy it Best GM book, talks about how to deal with problem players. Yes they even say after a couple talks and it still continues you need to kick him off the table you are going to lose more people if you dont.

Critias is right, however, it's getting down to optimizing NPCs to kick his desert @$$ of a PC.  If this doesn't work, I'll ask him to play fair in respect to the other PCs.  This started when one of the players judged him as to being a cheat.  As for the variant rules, I've added a SR newbie to one of my groups.  So I'm cautious as to adding any new variant rules until I'm sure what group she does join.

[Cass100199]

That's a pretty passive-aggressive way to handle the problem, and meanwhile (a) the game is being derailed, and (b) you've got to figure out why the rest of the group isn't getting murdered, too.  It's goofy. 

Not really. He knowingly screwing with your game, so you use the same tools to screw with him back. It's not like you can follow him out to his car and beat his ass. What you're dealing with here is a player who a) doesn't respect the game, b) doesn't respect the other players, and c) doesn't respect the GM, who is willing to put in extra time to create a gaming experience for multiple people. I would speculate that if you were to go back and talk to any previous GM, he's been doing this shit for years. Very simply, he's a bully and a jerk. Talking to people like that doesn't work. They have another need inside them that they are using their superiority in the game to fulfill. Honestly, unless this is a friendship that has been going on for many, many years, the time necessary to invest in someone like this is way beyond the means or patience of people who may or may not like him. So, the easiest and quickest way to bring this to heel is to use the game, that is propping up his ego, to beat him. It's a simple matter of reinforcing that you are in charge. One of two things will happen: he will quit and find another GM to screw with, or his attitude will break. Regardless, even the latter option will involve a lot of backhanded sniping, whining, and all around s***headedness. Best thing to do is kill the character and bounce him.

[Critias]

That's a pretty passive-aggressive way to handle the problem, and meanwhile (a) the game is being derailed, and (b) you've got to figure out why the rest of the group isn't getting murdered, too.  It's goofy. 

Not really. He knowingly screwing with your game, so you use the same tools to screw with him back. It's not like you can follow him out to his car and beat his ass. What you're dealing with here is a player who a) doesn't respect the game, b) doesn't respect the other players, and c) doesn't respect the GM, who is willing to put in extra time to create a gaming experience for multiple people. I would speculate that if you were to go back and talk to any previous GM, he's been doing this shit for years. Very simply, he's a bully and a jerk. Talking to people like that doesn't work. They have another need inside them that they are using their superiority in the game to fulfill. Honestly, unless this is a friendship that has been going on for many, many years, the time necessary to invest in someone like this is way beyond the means or patience of people who may or may not like him. So, the easiest and quickest way to bring this to heel is to use the game, that is propping up his ego, to beat him. It's a simple matter of reinforcing that you are in charge. One of two things will happen: he will quit and find another GM to screw with, or his attitude will break. Regardless, even the latter option will involve a lot of backhanded sniping, whining, and all around s***headedness. Best thing to do is kill the character and bounce him.

I disagree very strongly.  The GM derailing everything else he has planned for a game and, instead, throwing the whole world (at one character, out of the whole group) and killing them over and over again, accomplishes nothing but giving the problem player the spotlight and sidelining, ignoring, and irritating the other players even more.  They and the campaign gain nothing, and actively lose both gaming time and verisimilitude, when just one member of their crew suddenly has the whole universe pull out the stops and kill them (but not everyone else), over and over and over again, in the hopes that some sort of real-world lesson gets learned.

It's cheap, it's easy, and it proves nothing, while the game continues to suffer (and, in fact, suffers MORE). 

Cowboy up, talk to the person one adult to another, and disinvite them from your game.  Don't plot and scheme, don't scour rulebooks for ways to "beat" them, don't make it some huge piece of melodrama.  Don't invite them to the game and then make a big show of kicking them out after they've made the trip, which invites terrific anger and frustration.  Just give them a phone call before the next game session, and let them know you don't want them there.  That's all it takes.

At any rate, I've said my piece.  I don't think repeating ourselves back and forth is going to sway anyone, and I don't want to turn this thread into an argument (over an argument). 

[All4BigGuns]

Has anyone bothered to consider that sometimes a player or players gets jealous that someone os better at making characters than they are and so they accuse the more mechanically capable of cheating and other things to try and get the GM to boot them? I'm not saying it is necessarily the case, but it is still a possibility that any GM must consider.