[Sichr]

Does a possessed mage with channeling use the spirits magic instead of his own for his magic abilities (i.e. sorcery and conjuring) since his mental and special stats will be overwritten? SM,p.101

Edit:

I would also like this NOT to be a discussion are for any rules issues listed here - if you want to discuss it, make a thread in the Rules forum.

This is a questions only thread.

POSSESSION AND VESSELS
When  a  spirit  possesses  a  vessel,  the  combined  being  that  r esults  is  dual natured,  has
Immunity  to  Normal  Weapons  (p.  295,  SR4A ), and  boasts  all  of  the  spirit ’s  powers  and  skills. Occasionally  a  possessing  spirit ’s  nature  manifests  through  the  vessel  in  an  effect  similar  to a shamanic mask (p. 181,  SR4A).

Living Vessels
 If  the  vessel  is  a  living  creature ,  the  spirit ’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes. 
While  possessed,  the  spirit ’s  Mental  and  Special attributes  are  used  (which  means  that  a  pos-sessed technomancer cannot access Resonance ), with  Initiative  recalculated  as  normal  (use  the spirit ’s  normal  Initiative  Passes).  The  spirit  is  in full  physical  control of the vessel, but does not have access to the host ’s knowledge, skills,  or experience. The  mind of  the  vessel remains  in whatever  state  it  was  when  possession  began;  if  conscious,  it  becomes  an  impotent  witness locked inside its own body for the duration. Possessing spirits cannot perceive or operate AR or direct neural or cybernetic interfaces
.....

"does not have access to skills", "Impotent witness"
This seems to be quite clear. Next.

EDIT:

THE VOODOO TRADITION
 Concept: A profoundly mystic religion where those touched
by the great loa as their serviteurs (servants) on earth learn to deal
and court the favor of the invisibles, the subtle inhabitants of the
spirit world, and through them unlock the higher mysteries and
the gates to the mystic realm of Guinee.
....
The key to interacting with loa and the lesser spirits of their courts is tribute and respect
for their powers. Theey must be courted and flattered, not commanded, in order to garner favor and service.
A distinctive aspect of voodoo traditions is that of calling forth the invisibles to possess the body of the summoner or even mundane  serviteurs (literally “servants”).  These spirit-ridden individuals gain great power at the cost of conscious control over their actions.

When there is Loa, there is no Hougan. Hougan simply watches from distance what Loa reveals to him by his actions. And this lasts until Loa decides to leave.

[Lethe]

Does a possessed mage with channeling use the spirits magic instead of his own for his magic abilities (i.e. sorcery and conjuring) since his mental and special stats will be overwritten? SM,p.101

First, keypoint was the channeling metamagic., which you totally ignored.
Second, the answer for me is a pretty clear "no".
Third, i asked the question not for me, but for other people in this forum, who assume a "yes", which i think is ridiculous.

Thanks for your efforts.

[Sichr]

You see... even single word can make difference But obviously better to deal with it here than in Erratta.

[Tsuarok]

Does a possessed mage with channeling use the spirits magic instead of his own for his magic abilities (i.e. sorcery and conjuring) since his mental and special stats will be overwritten? SM,p.101

The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power (see p. 101). Control is still shared, however, and the magician is unable to tap the possessing spirit’s powers without expending a service.

This suggests that while channeling the magician does use his own abilities, while this shows that the magician can have the spirit use it's powers/spells while channeling.

When using the magicians magical skills, use her magic (possibly with Aid Sorcery).  When using the spirit's skills/powers, use their stats.

[Tsuzua]

Sichr, you're not including other relevant passages. 

A  magician  possessed  by  a  spirit  he  summoned is fully aware of what the spirit is doing, and is still able to give it commands and directions.

And far more important for this discussion:

The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power (see p. 101)

There's also the fact that there are other possession traditions other than Voodoo.  So while you can argue that Voodoo mages can't direct their loa with that passage under their tradition, your qabbal mage is just fine giving directions to his elohim. 

Now there is question of spellcasting and summoning while possessed.  The reason why this matters is that Street Magic explicitly states "while possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used" (SM 102).  So if you're possessed by a force 6 spirit, "your" magic is 6 regardless of what my normal magic rating is. 

Since you're a channeling mage, you can use your skills just fine.  Thus if you have spellcasting 6, you can cast spells with a Magic attribute of 8 if you're channeling a force 8 spirit.  This doesn't cost a service since you're not using any of the spirit's powers (SM 55).  So you can summon the largest spirit you feel comfortable with, have it possess you, and then just walk around with ItNW and a higher magic score.  There's still some drawbacks such as being obviously possessed, but there's some fun you can do here*.

One potential hiccup is if your maximum magic applies to the spirit's magic while you channel a spirit.  The FAQ mentions physical attributes being limited by the augmented maximum, but what about mental and special attributes?  Physical attributes work differently so other attributes aren't affected by that passage.  You can also make a reasonable case that RAI that they are capped too.

*-The most fun is augmented mages who take ware that doesn't require active control and then overcast summon and channel.  Your magic is now as good as other mages and you have all sorts of ware.

[Lethe]

The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration

While being possessed the vessels mind (also mental attributes) remains operational/unchanged, he can observe and experience whatever the spirit is doing with his body.

While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used.

While the mind stays the same, during possession still the spirits mental and special attributes are used. How can this fit together? Well, the spirit is in control, everything the vessel does is actually done by the spirit, that is the only reason why the spirits attributes are used. The vessels mental or special attributes get NOT enhanced.

the spirit’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.

Only the physical attributes get enhanced.

use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power

Conclusion: the mind of the channeling mage has never changed, was never enhanced and the only benefits left is the increase of the physical attributes. He will never use the spirits magic attribute for his own magic skills.

[Tsuarok]

The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration

While being possessed the vessels mind (also mental attributes) remains operational/unchanged, he can observe and experience whatever the spirit is doing with his body.

While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used.

While the mind stays the same, during possession still the spirits mental and special attributes are used. How can this fit together? Well, the spirit is in control, everything the vessel does is actually done by the spirit, that is the only reason why the spirits attributes are used. The vessels mental or special attributes get NOT enhanced.

the spirit’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes.

Only the physical attributes get enhanced.

use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power

Conclusion: the mind of the channeling mage has never changed, was never enhanced and the only benefits left is the increase of the physical attributes. He will never use the spirits magic attribute for his own magic skills.

That's how I read it too.  And really, it is even more powerful this way since the spirit can Aid Sorcery, effectively adding their force to your magical skill rolls (though obviously overcasting can still be a problem and a service would be used).

[Tsuzua]

It says "while possessed,..." which is talking about the vessel.  If it was just the spirit, it would be while possessing.   The section is written from the standpoint of the possessed vessel's statistics, not the spirits.  That's why you add the force to the vessel's physical statistics and not the other way around. 

Also a channeling mage balances the spirit and summoner's minds with no effect on the combined being expect for resisting magical spells and effects, accessing the summoner's skills, and giving the summoner fine motor control (SM 55).  Why isn't the combined being's mental and special stats affected otherwise since now the caster's mind is controlling the body as well under your logic?  Why does it state that you can use your skills but otherwise works like normal possession if the attributes used are different?

[Lethe]

Also a channeling mage balances the spirit and summoner's minds [...] Why isn't the combined being's mental and special stats affected

Where do you get that from? Nowhere in Channeling it says anything about combined or balanced minds. The vessel and spirit each have their own minds, independently and nothing got ever merged. The only thing that happens during possession is the enhancement of physical attributes and who is in control of the body.

The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or experience.

They don't share or combine minds. They can't read each others thoughts, use each others skills or anything. The minds are at all times separated.

Why does it state that you can use your skills but otherwise works like normal possession if the attributes used are different?

Vessel and spirit always use their own mental and special attributes. Before, during and after possession. The only reason it says to use spirits mental and special attributes is to emphasize that the spirit is in control. The vessel still uses his own, but without his body he can't use it to any effect. With channeling it changes. Now he still uses his own mental and special attributes, but can actually do something, because he can control his body again. So the attributes the vessel or spirits use are always the same, not different.

[Tsuzua]

The balanced mind quote is from SM 54, "a magician who was willingly possessed can find balance between the two minds."  Therefore at the very least there is shared control of the body while channeling.  It also says under Possession, "If the test succeeds, the possession takes hold: the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration (SM 101)."

If they intended for mages while channeling to alternate between two sets of mental/special attributes for skills, why didn't they say anything about this and in fact say the opposite?  They specify point out that the only time you use a channeler's mental attributes is if it's lower than the spirit's for resisting magical spells and powers (SR 55).  They immediately follow this with "Otherwise, resolve the effects and duration of Possession normally (see p. 101)."  And under normal possession, "the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used (SM 102)."
 

[Lethe]

The real statement is

the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental attribute of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit’s or the magician’s)

, which again states, that each has his own mind and implies using their own attributes normally, unless resisting mana spells.

Of course this discussion could go endless, without anyone resigning, which is the reason, why i asked this question in the errata thread to get an official answer for. GMs should follow the example set by missions and ban it until fixed.

[blackangel]

The real statement is

the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental attribute of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit’s or the magician’s)

, which again states, that each has his own mind and implies using their own attributes normally, unless resisting mana spells.

Of course this discussion could go endless, without anyone resigning, which is the reason, why i asked this question in the errata thread to get an official answer for. GMs should follow the example set by missions and ban it until fixed.

As you said it could be endless 

I don't prefer one way or the other in fact. I always used the character mind stats while possesed and the infos in a way tend to tell that I was wrong. in the other way I always assume while possessed that I have only one Stun Chart. If I follow your description then I should assume that there's the character one and the spirit one... It can be funny to have someone casting a really huge stunbolt to you, you go to sleep and have your spirit fully possessing you and continue to do what is needed...  or you know, it's a bit like you have a monster inside you and with channeling you take hold of it, but while put (or forced) on rest (or anger), the beast take control... Oh avengers... yes Hulk it's you 

My question on taking the lowest stat for resistance was : isn't it intended to have such a mix resist with the lowest in order to be easier to have the spirit go and see elsewhere ? Assuming that you have only one stun chart.


BA

[Sichr]

The real statement is

the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental attribute of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit’s or the magician’s)

, which again states, that each has his own mind and implies using their own attributes normally, unless resisting mana spells.

Of course this discussion could go endless, without anyone resigning, which is the reason, why i asked this question in the errata thread to get an official answer for. GMs should follow the example set by missions and ban it until fixed.

I wonder now, if the damage would be applied on spirit, on mage, on both, or on the one who had rolled defense...

[Thrass]

damage and the like are one of the few things that are clarified by the rules...

the merged entitiy (with it's new computed damage monitor) takes the damage and when the spirit leaves both keep the damage

[Hellfire]

This discussion leads me to questions of my own:

what about mystic adepts with channelling and possession tradition?
Do they use the possessing spirit magic rating?
Can they "switch" some of these points of magic to adept powers?
What happens to "physical" improvements of the body by adept powers while possessed? (for example: increased attributes, increased reflexes, boosted attributes)