[Noctem]

Hello gang,

I am part of a group of players who will start playing a new campaign in shadowrun this sunday.  We played a one off some time ago and we enjoyed it ( though we spent 5 hours planning the mission lol ).  I am currently looking at playing the "Ghost" build that UmaroVI has posted in his handy Archetypes thread.  I added a few things of my own like a cyclops bike for example, nothing fancy and simply using the left over BP i had after following the build.  I'm looking forward to playing it.

However, my DM has been pretty negative about the build when I showed it to him, including trying to convince me that the ballistic and impact values should be making me lose AGI, that the character is not well built because it won't do well in the streets and is way too focused on combat.  Anyway it's kind of demoralizing and I wanted some input from this board so that I can relay information to him so he understands the builds inner workings.  I could use some info on that myself so, win win.

I've read the tactics section and the rest of the entry for the build.  However I do have some questions, especially after my DM basically shot me down haha.  Is this build able to do well out of combat ?  How should I play this build exactly, what kind of situations should I look for ?  If anyone could give me some pointers as to how to properly play this build that would be great as well.  Maybe also some pointers as to what kind of situations I should try to avoid.  Anyway any help is welcome and appreciated.  Thank you. 

EDIT:  I did some background creation for the character and figured that the forum might be able to tell me if it's decent or not haha.  Also, my questions have been answered.


Description:

Noc is 5'7", has green eyes and a serious personality.  She has fair skin and looks like she could use a little sunlight.  She often has her hair dyed, currently pink colored.  She wears glasses, though she does not actually need them (see glasses).  In order to hide her eye color she wears contacts that change them to a light blue (see contacts).  Noc is usually silent during meetings, though if prompted she will talk.  She has a very good intuition when it comes to how best to approach things such as meets, combat, and other tactical situations.  She weighs around 150 pounds and has a well trained physique, though nothing visible.  On the outside, when needed, she will show a smiling woman who is out-going and cheerful.

She usually wears a business suit with either slacks or a skirt depending on the occasion.  Underneath she, at all times, has a Form-fitting Full Body Suit.  In addition if the situation calls for it she will add a set of Secure Tech armor.  For weapons she will always carry a Yamaha Pulsar Taser and her Morrisey Elan in a concealed holster.  Depending on what she is doing she will add her combat proven Ruger Thunderbolt.  If the situation has a chance to become a heavy combat situation she will put her MGL-6 and/or Ingram White Knight to good use.

She is not a trusting person.  She is a mercenary of sorts and does what she must in order to survive.  She is hard headed and does not follow someone elses lead well.  Though if the situation does not fall under her expertise, she will differ to someone else.  Years of training with first the military and then the SOTF have hardened her resolve and given her a Will of steel.


Background:

She was picked up early in her military career by the Special Operations Task Force (SOTF) for advanced training in infiltration, assassination and urban combat.  She was first deployed in low yield operations where her tasks were primarily infiltration and monitoring.  However one such mission was compromised when the low priority asset she was tasked to follow turned out to be the real leader of a smuggling and assassination network.  Her orders were immediately changed to acquiring and removing the target from play.  She completed the mission by entering the targets home and firing two bullets into the man's head.  From that point on she was given high priority assassination missions.

5 years later, during a mission in New York, Noc learned that a fellow SOTF operative was secretely involved with a top tier asassination network.  This operative had been an ardent rival of hers over the years, the operatives codename had been Diem.  However before she could relay this information to her superiors, Diem framed her.  Having the choice between death and going rogue, she decided that survival was what she wanted more.  She became a shadowrunner after almost two years of hiding.  Having had to abandon all her resources when she left SOTF, she is currently not able to actively look for Diem.


Concept:

A Ghost.  She is an extremely capable Infiltrator.  She has very high training with Pistols and especially Semi-Automatic Pistols.  She has solid training with Heavy Weapons as well though she has yet to focus on a particular type (will be Assault Cannons).  Her Genetic Augmentation provides her with a high skill with most Firearms. 

She has a Synthacardium which allows her to perform extremely well in Athletic situations even though her physique is not always suited.  Her muscles do however have extensive Muscle Toning which give her an almost unnatural agility.  While most of her augmentations are Bioware, she had Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers installed.  Fake licenses are used for both.

Her years of military and SOTF service have given her high Cyberware and Bioware implemented into her body.  She now uses it for survival.  Her time with the SOTF also identified low tier contacts within various organizations and networks that she managed to use to acquire weapons, ammo and gear.


Notes:  ( I used this to list current goals / quests )

Has completed 1 mission so far with the group.

Diem's current whereabouts are unknown.  No known description.  The files that linked Diem to the criminal organization do not have a description.  They do however give a record of Diem's dealings with them.  The organization is currently still in operation and supposedly have Diem's protection.

SOTF is currently hunting for Noc.  The description they have of her is black hair, green eyes, tanned skin, 5'7",  140 pounds.  They have her entire medical history, records on file.  The SOTF has declared her a rogue agent, and has issued a kill on sight order to all agents.

Currently known as Noctem to other shadowrunners.  Background is vaguely known to the group of shadowrunners she is currently with.  They know she was military, they know she had a falling out.  They know not to ask questions.
-----

[UmaroVI]

Hopefully I can answer some questions.

First, you should always keep in mind that you want to optimize to the type of game your GM runs. Some GMs have an irrational hatred for cyberlimbs - don't have cyberlimbs in that game. Some GMs love elves. Play an elf. Some GMs really dislike Possession mages, or characters with any 1s in any attribute. And so on. Your GM may just dislike one or more elements of the character and you should just play a different character.

The Ghost is a street samurai and is very much focused on combat. The noncombat things the Ghost brings are mainly being good at stealth-related things (the Stealth group). If your GM runs a very combat-light game, you might want to play a hybrid character. I don't think the Ghost has any glaring weaknesses, it's more that the Ghost is something of a specialist and isn't going to excel in, say, a combat-light, investigation-heavy game. I would have a "so what exactly is this game going to focus on" conversation with your GM.

If you are looking for characters similar to the ghost, but with combat more secondary and other skills more primary, the Spook and the Combat Hacker are both good options. Neither are as good at combat, bu the Combat Hacker brings hacking (obviously) and B&E skills, and the Spook brings social skills and B&E.

Edit: the armor thing is probably your GM not knowing how Form Fitting Body Armor works.

[Noctem]

Thanks a lot for your quick reply UmaroVI.  Maybe some more information would help with my questions as well.  The group we are going to be running is composed of a human hacker, human burlesque dancer face, an AK-97 merc, maybe a troll tank cyberlimb and myself.  I figured that I should play a character who is good at what the ghost covers.

I've also had a conversation with the DM and his answer was that the game would depend on the group.  If the group wanted to go and do RP for 6 hours and no combat, that's how it will go but if the group wants to go do a combat mission then..  In any case he was very evasive about it.  He even said that if one player wanted to go do some solo stuff then he could.  Though I think that kinda goes against the "playing together" aspect of the game.

Now the face / hacker are interested in RP and can do well in a combat environment but aren't really designed for it.  The hacker has no combat skills other than hacking.  The face has pistols training.  However the merc is combat heavy and so is the Troll.

Should I really change the character ?  I like the concept behind it.

I do have another question though, in the build summary you have posted, you don't include a concealed holster or quick draw.  Are those things I should look at adding ?

[UmaroVI]

I would probably then compare with the merc and the troll, and see if you can figure out what skills they have that you don't, and ask the GM to point out specifically what they are if needed.

Also, make sure you are comparing pools not ratings. Just for example, Intuition 5, Perception 1, and an Attention Coprocessor 3 is better than Intuition 3 and Perception 3, but people who aren't use to the bonus-stacking aspects of SR might think the first character is below average at perception and the second character is average.

On an unrelated note, I think your group has no awakened characters at all. If you're looking to fill a niche, I think that's the obvious one.

[Noctem]

The DM has banned magic users completely stating they are too complicated.  So no awakened unfortunately.  I'll go over the build with the DM and explain to him step by step how the character works and that I am not at a disadvantage on the "street" as he put it.  He also stated that he was interested in finding out how an implant filled character would do on the "streets".  sigh.  Could you explain to me how detection of bioware / cyberware would work just so that I can explain it to him should the need arise.  I don't really feel like dealing with the DM just saying that via a visual perception roll the security guard knows I have a Suprathyroid gland and is now calling for backup you know ? lol.

[Tsuzua]

Detecting cyberware is typically done via cyberware scanners (SR4A 262).  Cyberware scanners are fairly cheap and generally detect most ware most of the time.  MAD scanners can also pick up cyberware, but provides far less information (basically there's metal here!).  Bioware is pretty hard to detect outside of a medical setting (Aug 125). 

As for why an implant filled character is on the street, all it means that you're experienced.  If the average run pays 10000Y after expenses and upkeep and you run once a month, you can almost buy everything the Ghost owns in about a two year's time or 20-24 runs.  With a lucky break or two and some start up cash, you could easily do it in a year.

[Noctem]

so getting a fake license for the cyberware is important then ?  I'm just surprised that wasn't in the build up.  I'll post my build in a sec, maybe you guys can look it over and just tell me what i'm missing ?

[Tsuzua]

so getting a fake license for the cyberware is important then ?  I'm just surprised that wasn't in the build up.  I'll post my build in a sec, maybe you guys can look it over and just tell me what i'm missing ?

I'm surprised too.  You can buy a fake license fairly cheaply.  Depending on how the GM handles it, it should be Rating x 100Y per item or just 1 generic "Cyberware" license.

[All4BigGuns]

so getting a fake license for the cyberware is important then ?  I'm just surprised that wasn't in the build up.  I'll post my build in a sec, maybe you guys can look it over and just tell me what i'm missing ?

I'm surprised too.  You can buy a fake license fairly cheaply.  Depending on how the GM handles it, it should be Rating x 100Y per item or just 1 generic "Cyberware" license.

Building in Chummer, you have to do the 'per item' version of the licenses.

[Noctem]

yes I did see that in the build there was just one generic license for firearms.  I wasn't sure what that was about but that's a rules legal way to get a fake license for all the firearms ?  Or is that up to DM ruling ?

Edit:  You can just delete and manually type in what you want the license to cover, so it's possible to do in chummer.  it's more a question of if the DM has to allow it or if it's a rules legal way to do it.

[Tsuzua]

Umaro uses "group" licenses because Bull has stated that he prefers him that way.  Since the archetypes are built with Missions in mind, Umaro went with that.  However, the most RAW approach is a license for each individual piece.  Thus you should go with whatever your GM says.

[Noctem]

ok i'll present the options to him and explain that it would streamline the licenses and maybe help make it less complicated for everyone.  As for the build i thought about it and posting it seems redundant since it's a copy of the ghost entry already posted.  I just added a license for each gun and each cyberware.  I also added a Cyclops motorcycle since it looks awesome and I figured having a decent mode of transport could come in handy.  Same for having a gun compartment, ammo carrying that kind of thing.  I think we might have a van or truck or something from one of the other characters.

[jonathanc]

Hopefully I can answer some questions.

First, you should always keep in mind that you want to optimize to the type of game your GM runs. Some GMs have an irrational hatred for cyberlimbs - don't have cyberlimbs in that game. Some GMs love elves. Play an elf. Some GMs really dislike Possession mages, or characters with any 1s in any attribute. And so on. Your GM may just dislike one or more elements of the character and you should just play a different character.

The Ghost is a street samurai and is very much focused on combat. The noncombat things the Ghost brings are mainly being good at stealth-related things (the Stealth group). If your GM runs a very combat-light game, you might want to play a hybrid character. I don't think the Ghost has any glaring weaknesses, it's more that the Ghost is something of a specialist and isn't going to excel in, say, a combat-light, investigation-heavy game. I would have a "so what exactly is this game going to focus on" conversation with your GM.

If you are looking for characters similar to the ghost, but with combat more secondary and other skills more primary, the Spook and the Combat Hacker are both good options. Neither are as good at combat, bu the Combat Hacker brings hacking (obviously) and B&E skills, and the Spook brings social skills and B&E.

Edit: the armor thing is probably your GM not knowing how Form Fitting Body Armor works.

I've actually been somewhat curious about how you're using armored cyberlimbs; are they directly additive? If so, where are those rules? I thought armor on cyberlimbs was like strength or body; you used the higher number in a situation where the limb was in direct use, but otherwise you used the average of the limb and the person's body, since both were in effect?

[All4BigGuns]

Hopefully I can answer some questions.

First, you should always keep in mind that you want to optimize to the type of game your GM runs. Some GMs have an irrational hatred for cyberlimbs - don't have cyberlimbs in that game. Some GMs love elves. Play an elf. Some GMs really dislike Possession mages, or characters with any 1s in any attribute. And so on. Your GM may just dislike one or more elements of the character and you should just play a different character.

The Ghost is a street samurai and is very much focused on combat. The noncombat things the Ghost brings are mainly being good at stealth-related things (the Stealth group). If your GM runs a very combat-light game, you might want to play a hybrid character. I don't think the Ghost has any glaring weaknesses, it's more that the Ghost is something of a specialist and isn't going to excel in, say, a combat-light, investigation-heavy game. I would have a "so what exactly is this game going to focus on" conversation with your GM.

If you are looking for characters similar to the ghost, but with combat more secondary and other skills more primary, the Spook and the Combat Hacker are both good options. Neither are as good at combat, bu the Combat Hacker brings hacking (obviously) and B&E skills, and the Spook brings social skills and B&E.

Edit: the armor thing is probably your GM not knowing how Form Fitting Body Armor works.

I've actually been somewhat curious about how you're using armored cyberlimbs; are they directly additive? If so, where are those rules? I thought armor on cyberlimbs was like strength or body; you used the higher number in a situation where the limb was in direct use, but otherwise you used the average of the limb and the person's body, since both were in effect?

Far as I knew, cyberlimb armor was supposed to add directly at all times (no hit locations, thank God).

[Ajax]

Umaro's Ghost is a very well built character, but it is a character built to fulfil a very particular role: ranged combat, stealthy movement, and close-quaters buttkicking as a sideline.  To put it in the very stark terms of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition, the Ghost is a Striker, or is general MMO paralance he is ranged DPS.

This is the typical role of the "street samurai" in Shadowrun, but note also that Ghost, with his Charisma of 3, Etiquette 1, and no social disadvantages isn't going to be terribly bad at social interaction. Sure, you don't want him to be the one negotiating the payment with Mr. Johnson, or the guy social engineering his way past the receptionist at Tonites Target, Inc... but, if you play him as the "stong, silent type" who can stand next to the Face while he or she does his thing, he'll do fine. The ideal level of social ability for a street samurai is three BP's: Be Polite. Be Professional. Be Prepared to kill every motherfrakker you meet.