[jonathanc]

I love Shadowrun, and have for years, but there's one thing I don't love: the initiative system. Much like HERO, Shadowrun splits turns into multiple passes, with "faster" characters gaining more actions per turn, split across those passes. I see two main problems with this:

1. It slows combat down to a crawl; every turn is actually 2-4 turns, and the player actions are additionally slowed by confusion about the passage of time....movement is listed per turn, after all, not per pass, and smoke grenade durations are measured in turns as well.

2. It makes any combat between "normals" and people with multiple passes largely irrelevant. Even if the normals go first in the round, you can always afford to abort to a full-defense, dance between their bullets, and just wait until your second pass to shoot them. And your third pass. And your fourth pass.

Does anyone else have a problem with the way initiative works in Shadowrun? And if so, how do you deal with it? Here are a few of my ideas:

- Allow groups of 'grunts' to spend one point of their Group Edge (which, as I recall, is equal to their Professionalism rating) to give all members of the group an extra initiative pass

- Eliminate extra passes and compensate people with wired reflexes by increasing the bonus to their initiative rolls and/or reaction for the purposes of dodging.

- Double the size of most enemy groups in an encounter to compensate for the inevitable first-round slaughter (I dislike this option, as it just slows down combat even more).

[Crash_00]

Well as to number 1. There are really two issues here. How knowledgeable of the rules are they, and how long do they plan during combat.

If they are knowledgeable of the rules, I suggest the 10 second rule. It's your turn, what do you do, 10...9...8...7...you get the point. At 0 they hold their action and you move on. No arguing, no fussing, they can go if they've decided what to do after the next person's action.

If they aren't knowledgeable, do your best to get them competent so that you can start the 10 second rule. It really speeds combats along. Of course, for it to be fair you have to do the same for enemies.

As for number 2. It's kind of the entire point. Boosters are supposed to make normal goons a speedbump unless you're severely outnumbered. It's like comparing a Jedi to stormtrooper TK421. There is no challenge proposed by TK421, he's just a filler obstacle that has the possibility of alerting more threatening challenges.

Things I often do:
-Pre-roll a set of attacks for badguys (multiple DPs to account for penalties they may take).
-Roll badguy initiatives together or in groups of 3 to 4.
-In large battles, declare what some mooks are doing ahead of time.

[All4BigGuns]

The pass system works fine as is. The only time that it is truly a "problem", in my opinion, is when a Killer GM finds that it's too hard for him to get his slaughter on.

[Mason]

I only have a problem with it for some players having more turns than others.

[jonathanc]

The pass system works fine as is. The only time that it is truly a "problem", in my opinion, is when a Killer GM finds that it's too hard for him to get his slaughter on.

Really? I would think a killer GM would find it easier. Most players end up with 3 passes (you can't get more than that at chargen with cyber/bio without violating the Availability 12 limitation, it's awfully expensive for Adepts, so really only Mages go that fast at chargen), while Drones and Spirits get 4 passes....and like I said, being just one pass behind the competition is a killer.

IMO, having the only meaningful combat be between super-jacked initiative monkeys is a little dull. Why even bother *having* stats for Lone Star officers when they aren't going to be any sort of challenge? Throwing them at players seems more like a waste of their time than a fun tactical challenge. I'd like to reward players who are playing "fast" characters without punishing everyone else. As it is right now, initiative-jacking 'ware/powers/spells are a sort of "invisible requirement" for being a Shadowrunner. I've seen some really disappointed new players having to wait interminably while the rest of the  combat resolves around them.

[jonathanc]

I only have a problem with it for some players having more turns than others.

This is precisely why I can't stand playing Champions.

[tzizimine]

I have to agree with jonathanc on this one. The IP system has never been as smooth as a regular initiative system (i.e. d20). The 10 second rule is helpful, but only if all of the players are clear on what is going on (which even knowing the rules can still be an issue in a complicated fight). But, likewise, I haven't found one that is better for the Shadowrun feel.

[Mirikon]

Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.

But to be honest, I've never seen it to be a problem, either in Shadowrun or in Champions. The simplest solution, as Crash said way back in the second post in the thread, is to put int a ten second rule when dealing with experienced players, and to help new players understand the rules better, so they know what they're going to do.

A regular initiative system, such as you see in d20 is fine, when all things are equal. In Shadowrun, however, all things are NOT equal, and they aren't supposed to be. People who shell out the resources (money/essence for the ware, PP for the power, BP/sustaining penalties for the spell) to gain the advantage of multiple IP have a significant advantage over those that don't. But those resources spent in such a way are resources you don't have to spend some other way. If combat was the only part of Shadowrun, then you'd have a point. But if a combat is lasting more than 2 combat turns, your players should probably consider running, before reinforcements arrive.

[All4BigGuns]

Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.

But to be honest, I've never seen it to be a problem, either in Shadowrun or in Champions. The simplest solution, as Crash said way back in the second post in the thread, is to put int a ten second rule when dealing with experienced players, and to help new players understand the rules better, so they know what they're going to do.

A regular initiative system, such as you see in d20 is fine, when all things are equal. In Shadowrun, however, all things are NOT equal, and they aren't supposed to be. People who shell out the resources (money/essence for the ware, PP for the power, BP/sustaining penalties for the spell) to gain the advantage of multiple IP have a significant advantage over those that don't. But those resources spent in such a way are resources you don't have to spend some other way. If combat was the only part of Shadowrun, then you'd have a point. But if a combat is lasting more than 2 combat turns, your players should probably consider running, before reinforcements arrive.

Some people just try to find every way they possibly can to nitpick every system they come across for some reason. That, and some people think, for some reason, that the 'everything utterly equal' is good, whereas I personally find that to be the most dull and boring. My opinion on the matter is, if one wants complete equality among all characters, just go play the boring-as-heck D&D 4th.

[inca1980]

One thing I don't understand with what people say about the  IP combat vs. Combat turn combat is how one would be "slower" than the other.  Just because both systems use the terms "Combat Turn" is just a semantics issue.  If anything, you're rolling init less often (which takes time) in the IP system but one IP is essentially a "combat turn"...it's just called something else...i.e. it's just a chance to take a turn.  Now that being said, IP system does skip people entirely on certain "combat turns" and this I think is not a good idea.  It's also just one more thing to keep track of ...i.e. who gets to act and who doesn't act...

I've noticed that in real time....the less numbers and trackers etc that you have to keep track of, the much better.  No matter how trivial it may seem, every little thing you gotta remember becomes something hard to do when you're in the heat of a combat turn.  I generally tend to forget who's got 2 IP's vs. who's got 3 IP's, especially when I am throwing more than 1 enemy at at team.  Usually i mess up and just have to hand wave it and say "woops...that spirit who just hit you really should have only had 2 IP's...so i'll just remember for next turn"....things like that slow down combat or  are easily forgotten. 

My other gripe is that combat is again very "front loaded" and then there's all this time when 1IP characters are just frozen.  Even if you give them less actions, you should at least just let them choose to take their 1 action somewhere in the middle of the combat turn.  For example, I would say that you can give up your 1st IP action to transfer that to your 2nd IP or 3rd IP etc.  Again, something more to keep track of, but it does resolve the "blowing your load right away" problem of the IP system.  Another solution is have extra IP's translate into extra complex actions in one action phase.  Then there's no more IP's. 

[Mirikon]

See, that's why when I'm running, I write down the relative stats on index cards, and put the IP big and clear on the card. That isn't a problem with the system, inca, but with your organization and prepping.

As far as 'front loading', that is a possible gripe. Personally, I don't see it as an issue, but if you wanted to deal with it, I would change things up to be more like Champions. This is NOT a simple solution, however, and would result in more bookkeeping, but you could have five passes in a combat turn. Basically, it would work out like this:

Pass: IPs that go
1: 3,4,5
2: 2,4,5
3: 1,3,5
4: 2,4,5
5: 3,4,5

Not simple, but it works. Personally, I like how it is already set up, to be honest. But you're forgetting something, inca. Yes, it sucks to be a 1IP character under the system as it stands. That isn't a side effect, but a design feature. It is supposed to suck. That is why you shell out the resources to get more IP, and why the hacker stays in the van and the combat mage tries to keep Increase Reflexes sustained on himself at all times.

[Angelone]

I don't think the system is the problem, it's simple and easy to understand imo. The problem in my experience is when a player "hits the pause button" and takes a long time to decide what to do.

As for NPCs you really don't have to roll initiative for the mooks, just buy successes on their initiative roll and move on. Enemies which are supposed to present more of a threat (BBG, Elite Units) go ahead and roll if you want.

[jonathanc]

Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.

But to be honest, I've never seen it to be a problem, either in Shadowrun or in Champions. The simplest solution, as Crash said way back in the second post in the thread, is to put int a ten second rule when dealing with experienced players, and to help new players understand the rules better, so they know what they're going to do.

A regular initiative system, such as you see in d20 is fine, when all things are equal. In Shadowrun, however, all things are NOT equal, and they aren't supposed to be. People who shell out the resources (money/essence for the ware, PP for the power, BP/sustaining penalties for the spell) to gain the advantage of multiple IP have a significant advantage over those that don't. But those resources spent in such a way are resources you don't have to spend some other way. If combat was the only part of Shadowrun, then you'd have a point. But if a combat is lasting more than 2 combat turns, your players should probably consider running, before reinforcements arrive.

Some people just try to find every way they possibly can to nitpick every system they come across for some reason. That, and some people think, for some reason, that the 'everything utterly equal' is good, whereas I personally find that to be the most dull and boring. My opinion on the matter is, if one wants complete equality among all characters, just go play the boring-as-heck D&D 4th.

It's not a matter of making everyone equal, so much as it's a matter of keeping the perception that combat is moving along. When a player has to wait for everyone else to go 3 times before they get a turn again, that's not fun at all for them.

[Angelone]

If it's not fun they should have gotten IP boosters like everyone else. It's not like they aren't available to everyone.

[Mirikon]

If they made the choice not to get initiative boosters, then that is a necessary consequence of that choice. Would you make guns do less damage because you feel bad for the person who doesn't have any armor to speak of? No! Because, unless they are something like a sapient critter like a Naga, they have options to get actual armor, and chose not to. In fact, even if they were a Naga, that is still a choice they made. This isn't happyland where everything is nice and pretty and made of stardust-covered rainbows. This is a gritty world, and if you are behind the curve then it sucks to be you, end of story.