[jonathanc]

If it's not fun they should have gotten IP boosters like everyone else. It's not like they aren't available to everyone.

They're awfully difficult to put on a starting Technomancer without gimping his/her Resonance, for starters. Also, making IP Boosts "standard" for combat creates a pretty boring homogeneity among combat characters....all of them are chucking away 2-3 Essence on exactly the same 'ware, because without it they're irrelevant in combat. If you make an "option" so good that everyone would be a complete moron to pass on it, then it really isn't an option anymore, and people aren't really building characters....just just picking archetypes. It becomes like an MMO: sure you have a "choice" of how you build your talents/skills, but there's only one optimal spec, so half of those options functionally don't exist.

This isn't a matter of grittiness or setting - what's "grittier" about carbon-copy combat builds? Everybody is twitchy and jacked up, the only question is what gun they're shooting you with. In any other game, you could have more diverse combat match-ups, but due to the initiative system every Shadowrunner basically looks alike, if you're checking their character sheet.

[Mirikon]

Or, and here's a novel concept, it gives characters different arenas to shine in. Does your technomancer complain about the fact that when they're hacking into the building to give the team eyes and ears, they are the only ones getting any spotlight at the moment? Do you have problems with the Face shining when they're trying to negotiate a fair wage with the Johnson? So why shouldn't the combat monsters be better at combat?

[jonathanc]

Or, and here's a novel concept, it gives characters different arenas to shine in. Does your technomancer complain about the fact that when they're hacking into the building to give the team eyes and ears, they are the only ones getting any spotlight at the moment? Do you have problems with the Face shining when they're trying to negotiate a fair wage with the Johnson? So why shouldn't the combat monsters be better at combat?

Hacking and social interludes have rules that are oriented towards resolving quickly, so that the other players are not left waiting for long. This is not really true of combat. I'm not saying it's a deal-breaker or anything; I've been playing Shadowrun for like a decade and it's always been like this. I'm just pointing out that it is a flaw in the system that creates certain gameplay issues (extreme boredom for non-combat characters, lack of variety in character builds, relatively slow combat, and a greater amount of bookkeeping than, say, Pathfinder).

Combat monsters can be better at combat without forcing everyone else to wait half an hour between turns. This "problem" even affects Combat Monsters....if Wired Reflexes weren't a requirement for combat, you could do a lot of other stuff with that 3 Essence.

[Mirikon]

If everyone is waiting a half hour between turns, I'd say the problem isn't the system, but the fact that you need to get your players to move quicker.

[jonathanc]

If everyone is waiting a half hour between turns, I'd say the problem isn't the system, but the fact that you need to get your players to move quicker.

It was an exaggeration, but not by much. Say you have a TM on a crew with 5 other 'runners. Everyone else has a path to IP boost, so they've all got 3-4 passes. The TM  basically has to wait 3-4 rounds between turns...assuming a minute per person, that's 15-20 minutes right there, assuming that every player resolves their turn (decision, dice-rolling, etc.) in precisely one minute.

[Mirikon]

Unless the TM decides to do something so that he isn't being useless. Like, say, hacking into the building to own whatever security system is there, or calling up a drone or four to do some fighting for him, or dropping to full VR and attempting to hack into the other team, and screw with their AR/ware/guns/etc. Even a TM in combat has options. If they are only pointing a gun at someone and shooting, then that, again, is a choice, and there are consequences to your choices.

[jonathanc]

Enemy team has their wireless switched off; no hacking their guns. Maybe there isn't anything worth hacking in the area. Perhaps he doesn't have his drones with him. There are a lot of circumstances that would preclude these options.

And again, setting the TM aside, what about the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of IP?

[Mirikon]

Enemy team has their wireless switched off; no hacking their guns. Maybe there isn't anything worth hacking in the area. Perhaps he doesn't have his drones with him. There are a lot of circumstances that would preclude these options.

In that case, sometimes it just sucks to be you. That's Shadowrun.

And again, setting the TM aside, what about the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of IP?

Or the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of Agility? Or the generic nature of combat builds due to the importance of armor? Or the generic nature of Mage builds due to the importance of Magic? Or the generic nature of hacker builds due to the importance of Response? Or the generic nature of Face builds due to the importance of Charisma? There are certain things that are necessary to do your job. That is a fact of life. You can wail and bemoan it all you like, but it won't change. Even if you go to some other system, combat builds will still have certain facets that are required to not suck at combat.

[Angelone]

No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.

Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.

[jonathanc]

No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.

Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.

That's just it though: In Shadowrun, it's much harder for non-specialists to participate in combat. It's just a thought. I asked a question, and I have my answer: looks like I'm the only one bothered by it. Fair enough.

[All4BigGuns]

Sometimes it seems like people won't be happy unless the Technomancer can WTFpwn the Street Sam in a firefight.

[Angelone]

No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.

Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.

That's just it though: In Shadowrun, it's much harder for non-specialists to participate in combat. It's just a thought. I asked a question, and I have my answer: looks like I'm the only one bothered by it. Fair enough.

If I came across as belligerent it wasn't personal. I have just seen this whole argument come up many times over the years, and it always seems like there's someone who wants the spotlight all the time, not saying that you do. They are the players in MMOs who cry for nerfs on other classes to make there's look better and they bring the same thing to pnp games.

[jonathanc]

Sometimes it seems like people won't be happy unless the Technomancer can WTFpwn the Street Sam in a firefight.

Even without an IP advantage (which TMs can erase after two Submersions), this isn't likely. Any decent TM is hurting on physical stats, so either he can't dodge, can't shoot, or can't wear decent armor without massive penalties. No Sam in their right mind has the wireless on their ware active in combat, and should have some kind of investment in hacker defense if they're running a tacnet (and who isn't?)

[jonathanc]

No matter the system, combat tends to have the most rules as well as being the biggest time consumer. I remember a lot of times sitting around waiting for the decker to hack something or magic type to scout around on the astral plane. Those things excluded my character because I couldn't do them at all.

Everyone can participate in combat which is why there are so many rules regarding it.

That's just it though: In Shadowrun, it's much harder for non-specialists to participate in combat. It's just a thought. I asked a question, and I have my answer: looks like I'm the only one bothered by it. Fair enough.

If I came across as belligerent it wasn't personal. I have just seen this whole argument come up many times over the years, and it always seems like there's someone who wants the spotlight all the time, not saying that you do. They are the players in MMOs who cry for nerfs on other classes to make there's look better and they bring the same thing to pnp games.

I wasn't trying to single you out. This has gone for two pages, I see no need to press the issue further. I prefer simpler mechanics so people can focus on tactics, but it's not the end of the world.

[jonathanc]

Spirits and drones only get 2 IP, actually.

Finally got home to check my books. SR4A p. 167:

"Drones that pilot themselves have an initiative equal to their Pilot + Response attributes and they get 3 Initiative Passes per turn."

So I guess we were both wrong on that one. I concede the point on Spirits, but I'm almost certain that some of them used to get 3 or 4 passes per turn. In any case, Spirits of Man have Innate Spell as an Optional Power, so if our fictional "Killer GM" really wanted to do his thing, he has more than enough tools....I don't think the IP system really advantages players or GMs over one another; I just think it creates a bothersome sameness and makes combat kind of weird.

I mean, if I have 1 pass, and you have 3, and I'm after you in initiative, that means I'm fast enough that you can only take one action before I do, but then after I take my action I'm so slow that you can take two more actions before I can do anything. It's kinda weird if you think about it.


But, I said I was dropping it, and I will.