[Chrona]

get Kinesics: 5

Kinesics maxes at 3

[Zilfer]

Well if the character spent all that time to do that. I'd let the character get away with it perhaps. But he had party members to deal with he may be able to con one person or a group but it's not going to affect the organization and if people keep falling for "his or her charms' that's when you start sending in things without emotion. Robots, drones, Spirits. (not sure about spirits but hey!)

There's always around something and as the DM your right, you got to make it challenging, they can't just con their way out of everything, but to make it fair they should be able to do it fairly often. They'd be a pro con artist that's for sure. xD

[baronspam]

get Kinesics: 5

Kinesics maxes at 3

ok, so we are at 49 dice.  Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner.  That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way.  Probably enough. 

[The Big Peat]

Not my build I stress. But yes, I think 49 dice would suffice for whatever purposes the person would have in mind.

[Zilfer]

Not my build I stress. But yes, I think 49 dice would suffice for whatever purposes the person would have in mind.

Isn't it 4 more successes the DM should let you add in the flair of what happens?

[TheCommanders]

Yeesh...

[Shiroi]

You are actually pretty much correct - adepts are not very good, and pure adepts (meaning not mystic adepts and not cybered) are quite bad, second only to the "mundane with no ware" concept in "sounds cool but not supported." What adepts are good at is "enhancing" something else - albeit, expensively. The idea is that adepts get bonuses that stack with everything else, so you can use them to be better at that thing than any other person. Adepts also have a few powers that give you non-replicable abilities that are really useful. This being Shadowrun, though, they also have piles and piles and PILES of terrible, useless powers, powers that are ridiculously overpriced, powers that are over-balanced so they don't do anything helpful, etc.
 
As an example, Kinesics. Kinesics lets you get +3 to your social skills. But a cybered character could just take Tailored Pheremones for +3, right? However, you can be an adept, get Tailored Pheremones too, and get +6. If you want to be really hardcore, you can even take Improved Ability for some social skills. The idea is always going to be to get the "key" ware that does stuff adepts suck at getting - like ability score increases - and stack adept powers with 'ware that does similar things. this also lowers your magic, which makes it easier to get more magic later because it's cheaper.

Take a look at the Archetypes (link in my sig) and specifically the Transhuman Mystic (a mystic adept) and the Negotiator (a cybered adept) for some examples of what I mean. I have a few more adepts in the pipeline.

I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who would never want 'ware for reasons other than RP, having Sensitive System, or being a sapient critter or some other type of character who cannot take ware. If you want to be a pure adept who doesn't have and never gets 'ware because you think it's cool, go for it, but it is from an optimization standpoint bad.

Well, I really don't agree with you on this one. I will try to explain, why I think the opposite of what you say is actually true.
IMO, a pure adept is the only way how to play an adept character. First of all, to play a pure adept is not only fun, but such character has a lot of usefulness for the group. He can have the best (by far) perception, assenssing rolls, he can support magicians, he is not dependent on equipment, nor restricted by it. Any ware upgrades are a waste of essence and are in fact crippling you. I saw a lot of topics in this forum where people calculate the number of dice on rolls. Like 20+ etc. The fact is, that adepts cant compete with ware street samurai in this, but these numbers are not so important. The only ware that looks useful for an adept is bone lancing/density, but even the 1 point of essence is too big of a problem to make it worth. So, why boost agility, why boost strength? I really don't see and reason at all. Of course, if you only want to play a few runs, build a ware freak, you can kill anything your boss points at, much more easily (=.
If you play in a normal setting and your GM abides the connection between karma and credit rewards, as the time flows and characters will get more experienced, the adepts will begin the shine. Adepts can be great in all aspects of the game, even in combat and during the time, you will carefully save your credits to buy few sweet pieces of alfaware, your adept mate will start to kick ass and will have a ton of opportunities in role playing.

[UmaroVI]

If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.

I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.

If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.

[rasmusnicolaj]

A 500 point build adept (yes he has sensitive systems but the 15 point could be found in other negative qualities):

Bod 8 (9) (40 bp)
Agi 5 (40 bp)
Rea 3 (20 bp)
Str 7  (40 bp)
Cha 1  (0 bp)
Int 4 (30 bp)
Log 2 (10 bp)
Wil 5 (40 bp)
INI 10
Edge 2 (10 bp)
Magic 6 (65 bp)

Ogre (20)
Adept (5)
Way of the warrior (10)

Pos: Toughness (10), Perceptive (10), Restricted gear, weapon foci (5)
Neg: Sensitive system (15), SINner (10), Big regrets (5), In Depbt (7500) (5)

Powers (* marks the ones with a discount from Way of the Adept).
*Improved reflexes level 3 2 (Geas, must do MA form before going to bed)
*Improved Ability (Swords) 0,375/l (x3)
*Mystic Armor 0,375/l (x3)
Enhanced Perception 0,25/1 (x2)
Attribute boost, strength 0,25/l
Sustenance 0,25
Counterstrike 0,5
Linguistics 0,25

Athletics 1 (10 bp)
Electronics 1 (10bp)
Blades 6 +2 (26 bp)
Pistols 4 (16 bp)
Unarmed 1 (4 bp)
Dodge 4 (16 bp)
Infiltration 4 (16 bp)
Shadowing 2 (8 bp)
Perception 4 (6) (16 bp)
Tracking 4 (16bp)
Street Knowledge 2 (8bp)
Survival 2 (8bp)

Sec. procedures 2
Seattle street gangs 2
Sec companies 1
Football 1
English (native)
Or’zet 2
Japaneese 1

Contacts: Fixer 3/2 (3 + fra cha)

Katana – Weapon Focus Rank 4 (Bonding: 5 + 40.000)
Knife
Fichette security (mod: int. smartgun, Soundsurpressor, quickdraw holster, cameleon coating, personalized grip,+ Concealed holster)
3 clip reg. ammo (3*30 skud)
1 clip (1*30) capsule rounds (stun, +2 armor) narcoject (Sleep inducing- stun damage)
Form Fitting Body Armor (6/2 but only 3/1 encumbrance) + (Chemical Protection 6)
Armor Jacket (8/6) (Nonconductivity 6)
Overcoat (with ruthenium polymer coating, -4 perception to be spotted)
SecureTech PPP System all parts (2/6),
Total Armor 16/14 with mystic 19/17.

MetaLink with Vector Xim
      Runs in Public Mode broadcasting fake SIN, not used for shadowrunning
Sony Emperor with Novatech Navi
   Upgrade Response to 4
System 4, Response 4, Firewall 3, Signal 3
Optimization: Browse
Powersuite (Analyze 3, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4, Purge 4, Scan 2)
Encrypt 1
Bob the Agent, Pilot Rating 4
      Runs in Hidden Mode, used for shadowrunning persona and running gear. Bob normally runs Analyze
to watch for any intrusion and will sound an alert if it finds anyone.

Earbuds rating 2
Audio Enhancement R3 (+3 perception audio)
Spatial Recognizer
Contact Lenses with Thermographic, Flare Compensation, Image Link, Smartlink, Magnification, Vision Enhancement R3 (+ 3 perception visual)
Common clothing,
Subvocal Microphone (for commlink),
Climbing gear
2*100 m microwire
Gas mask
Rappeling Gloves,
Restraints *2 (plasteel)
Trauma patch
Keycard Copier R6
Sequencer R4
Fake SIN R4
Rating 4 Fake License (Bounty hunter)
Rating 4 Fake License (Fichette sec)
Rating 4 Fake License (Katana)
Rating 4 Fake License (Carry Foci)
Docwagon contract 1 yr
Bus/rail pass 1 month
Low lifestyle 1 month
Season tickets (Football)

[Shiroi]

If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.

I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.

If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.

Er, how the heck did you get this? Looks like my English is really bad  .  I said that while others(you) buy alfa/beta ware augments (after earning so much credit), the adept mate (friend - coo player...) with equal karma award will start to be very good (of course with no augmentation at all). Ware is expensive and a lot of things that has the same effect as ware can be bought in normal gear, but as a ware character, saving all money for cyber/bio upgrades, adept can get lot of customized equipment.
Starting with no ware is hard, but as you progress in magic and meta-magic (+addition power points from innitiation) and get more powers you don't need any ware upgrades at all.
And I really don't think Adept cant compare with ware samurai in ROLL playing. In combat, be it melee or ranged, experienced adepts can easily match experienced ware samurai and in normal environment, will easily beat them.
Try it for your self. You are very experienced in character creating, so try to do two models of characters, pure human, same point building system etc..focus one on magic, the second on credit = ware upgrades. Then add to both +- 100 - 200 karma points + 250 000 - 500 000 credits. If you then look at the two characters, tell me which of them would you prefer in a ROLL focused setting/campaign.

[UmaroVI]

If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.

I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.

If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.

Er, how the heck did you get this? Looks like my English is really bad  .  I said that while others(you) buy alfa/beta ware augments (after earning so much credit), the adept mate (friend - coo player...) with equal karma award will start to be very good (of course with no augmentation at all). Ware is expensive and a lot of things that has the same effect as ware can be bought in normal gear, but as a ware character, saving all money for cyber/bio upgrades, adept can get lot of customized equipment.
Starting with no ware is hard, but as you progress in magic and meta-magic (+addition power points from innitiation) and get more powers you don't need any ware upgrades at all.
And I really don't think Adept cant compare with ware samurai in ROLL playing. In combat, be it melee or ranged, experienced adepts can easily match experienced ware samurai and in normal environment, will easily beat them.
Try it for your self. You are very experienced in character creating, so try to do two models of characters, pure human, same point building system etc..focus one on magic, the second on credit = ware upgrades. Then add to both +- 100 - 200 karma points + 250 000 - 500 000 credits. If you then look at the two characters, tell me which of them would you prefer in a ROLL focused setting/campaign.

Hey, no worries on the English. I just got confused by what you were saying.

I've actually done variants of that experiment - and I've always concluded that the augmented adept pulls further and further ahead of the pure adept. If you disagree, I think it's most likely because you are building the augmented adept in an inefficient way. I think the strongest argument would be this: make me a pure, no augmentations adept on 400BP, then add 200 karma and 500,000 nuyen. After I see what you are focused on, I'll make an equivalent augmented character that is numerically more efficient.

[rasmusnicolaj]

If you want to play a pure adept for "ROLE-playing not ROLL-playing" reasons, go for it.

I was about to argue with you, but at the end of that you DID suggest that the adept would end up buying some alphaware so.... what is your point? I thought you were talking about pure (ie, no ware) adepts? If what you're saying is that STARTING with no 'ware and then getting it later on is sensible, then yes, that is a reasonable choice if you want to make a "power now for power later" trade.

If you are claiming that not starting with 'ware and never getting it is mechanically a good idea (and yes, I do understand that someone might want to do that because they are a ROLE-player not a ROLL-player hurr), show me an adept who doesn't have Sensitive System, and isn't a sapient critter/infected/shifter/some other type of character that just can't take 'ware normally.

Er, how the heck did you get this? Looks like my English is really bad  .  I said that while others(you) buy alfa/beta ware augments (after earning so much credit), the adept mate (friend - coo player...) with equal karma award will start to be very good (of course with no augmentation at all). Ware is expensive and a lot of things that has the same effect as ware can be bought in normal gear, but as a ware character, saving all money for cyber/bio upgrades, adept can get lot of customized equipment.
Starting with no ware is hard, but as you progress in magic and meta-magic (+addition power points from innitiation) and get more powers you don't need any ware upgrades at all.
And I really don't think Adept cant compare with ware samurai in ROLL playing. In combat, be it melee or ranged, experienced adepts can easily match experienced ware samurai and in normal environment, will easily beat them.
Try it for your self. You are very experienced in character creating, so try to do two models of characters, pure human, same point building system etc..focus one on magic, the second on credit = ware upgrades. Then add to both +- 100 - 200 karma points + 250 000 - 500 000 credits. If you then look at the two characters, tell me which of them would you prefer in a ROLL focused setting/campaign.

Hey, no worries on the English. I just got confused by what you were saying.

I've actually done variants of that experiment - and I've always concluded that the augmented adept pulls further and further ahead of the pure adept. If you disagree, I think it's most likely because you are building the augmented adept in an inefficient way. I think the strongest argument would be this: make me a pure, no augmentations adept on 400BP, then add 200 karma and 500,000 nuyen. After I see what you are focused on, I'll make an equivalent augmented character that is numerically more efficient.

I'm no expert but I believe you are right. The adept will have to use karma on attributes, skills, magic and initiation. The cybered character can drop the last two and therefore has more points to specialize and maxing stats.
Possible with really huge amounts of Karma the Adept will surpase anything but for most campaigns that is not realistic.

And yes I personally would make the pure adept anyway but I know it wouldn't give me the most powerful build.

Regards
Rasmus

[The Big Peat]

Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?

Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.

[UmaroVI]

Pure adept

First, you should check out the Martial Arts rules in Arsenal; they are optional (but so is Way of the Adept and gaesa), and give melee characters a much-needed boost. Also, you have 40 points of positive qualities - Ways are qualities, as is Adept.

To use this guy as a case study, a simple way to use 'ware for a strict upgrade (assuming you do indeed swap out Sensitive System for other stuff) would be:

Drop magic 6->5 (frees up 25 points)
Drop Perceptive (frees up 10 more points, makes him legal)
He's going to end up with 1 point of essence loss, so final magic 4.

Adjust adept powers to:
*Improved Reflexes 3 with Gaesa (2 pp)
*Mystic Armor 2 (.75 pp)
Attribute Boost (Strength) 1 (.25 pp)
Sustenance (.25)
Counterstrike (.5)
Linguistics (.25)

Spend 30 of the saved 35 bp buying 150000 worth of gear:

Reflex Recorder (Blades) 10000, .1 bioware essence
Reflex Recorder (Perception) 10000, .1 bioware essence
Alphaware Muscle Toner 2, 32000, .32 bioware essence
Alphaware Muscle Augmentation 1, 14000, .16 bioware essence
Alphaware Orthoskin 1, 60000, .2 bioware essence

Attention Coprocessor 3, Alphaware, 18000, .24 cyberware essence

4000 nuyen left and 5 bp left over, you can do whatever with those.

So, lost:
-3 Blades, -1 Armor, -4 perception, rolls 2 less dice to use Attribute Boost: Strength
gained:
+1 blades, +2 agility, +1 strength, +1 Armor, +4 Perception

Net results:
Same dice on Blades tests
same Armor
same Perception
+1 strength when Attribute Boost is not up, on average +.333 strength when Attribute Boost is up
+2 to Agility skills other than Blades, such as Pistols, Unarmed, and Infiltration.

Of course, you could probably do even better with a bit more fiddling and by dropping some of the less useful things, but this is a pretty clear upgrade and I did it this way to make sure it was an "apples to apples" comparison, in that the ware makes this character strictly better rather than making trades that I think are good (like exchanging a bit of overpriced armor for a lot of more useful things).

[UmaroVI]

Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?

Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.

It's very, very hard to make those sorts of comparisons, because it always comes down to "what kind of game does the GM run." This is why I set the benchpost as: can you make an adept who wouldn't be made better at the things they already do by using 'ware too? That is, if it's a social adept, can they use 'ware to be better at social skills without sacrificing in another area to pay for it?

You can, of course, make an adept that you cannot make an apples to apples comparison with by taking only gimmick powers - like having 6 magic, and buying, say, Distance Strike, Wall Running, Astral Perception, Living Focus, and Gliding. All of those give you unique abilities not duplicable with 'ware... but of course, this character has no synergy and nothing to back up their use of these powers, so they aren't going to be very good, and they also took some really awful powers in that mix; this is what me and my friends call a Pie Eating Adept. You simply can't compare them to an augmented adept, because what they are good at is eating pies, and there isn't cyberware that makes you better at eating pies.