[Onion Man]

Joe Uneducated isn't going to view the 15 or 18 points he spent on a contact group or set of contacts being nerfed as a roleplaying opportunity, he's going to view it as a GM nerfing his character for choosing a positive net exchange in his BP.

Tweaking game mechanics for "fairness" will nearly always result in three things:
1) A less fun system to work with
2) A more complex system to work within
3) Nerfed characters/Hurt feelings

btw, the game I'm running now has 2 cybered-up adepts and a magician considering a handful of implants of his own.  All 3 of them avoided that negative quality intentionally.

None of your players are going to enjoy forcibly having an implant added to them.  Doesn't have a damn thing to do with numbers or mechanics, it has to do with an invasion of persona and a loss of free will.

[John Shull]

I can't disagree more adamantly with the direction of the last couple of posts.

"I don't like how a natural combination of positive and negative qualities work together"

"So make a houserule against intelligent character optimization"

That's like saying I don't like how ECCM works with satellite uplinks, make a houserule banning satellite uplinks for any character with ECCM; or I don't like how adrenaline surge works with low initiative, make a houserule ruining adrenaline surge; or I don't like how infirm isn't a real penalty for a rigger, so why should riggers get 20 free BP.

It's flawed thinking.

Let me say I don't allow negative qualities that are not negatives. Saying that I don't have the worst case senario to give a negative either.  I had a Sensitive System Mage in game before and did not think it was in spirit of the rules but I could make it work.  Later on, several eps into the campaign, he gets chewed up and I give the medic working him 2 die penalty for every thing they try to do on him.  His system is just weirdly fickle and drug dosage and drugs themselves have to be chosen carefully.  It took a bit in game for the team to catch on what the issue was, most thought the medic was crapping his rolls.  Later on told him it cost an exta grand to fix him up and that he needs to get a medic alert bracelet for the future.  I think I called it Hitchcocks Syndrome and it was that heritary conditon his Sensative System comes from.  I also mentioned it would cost him some to put it in his Fake Sins if he was gonna get the braclet the medic told him to get.  Player had completely forgotten it was on his sheet.  He started reading the rule book to me and I just said I liked my interpretation better.  So it all worked out.  It did take me longer than I like to make it go but usually it does all work out in the end.

[Seeker]

I can't disagree more adamantly with the direction of the last couple of posts.

"I don't like how a natural combination of positive and negative qualities work together"

"So make a houserule against intelligent character optimization"

That's like saying I don't like how ECCM works with satellite uplinks, make a houserule banning satellite uplinks for any character with ECCM; or I don't like how adrenaline surge works with low initiative, make a houserule ruining adrenaline surge; or I don't like how infirm isn't a real penalty for a rigger, so why should riggers get 20 free BP.

It's flawed thinking.

Let me say I don't allow negative qualities that are not negatives. Saying that I don't have the worst case senario to give a negative either.  I had a Sensitive System Mage in game before and did not think it was in spirit of the rules but I could make it work.  Later on, several eps into the campaign, he gets chewed up and I give the medic working him 2 die penalty for every thing they try to do on him.  His system is just weirdly fickle and drug dosage and drugs themselves have to be chosen carefully.  It took a bit in game for the team to catch on what the issue was, most thought the medic was crapping his rolls.  Later on told him it cost an exta grand to fix him up and that he needs to get a medic alert bracelet for the future.  I think I called it Hitchcocks Syndrome and it was that heritary conditon his Sensative System comes from.  I also mentioned it would cost him some to put it in his Fake Sins if he was gonna get the braclet the medic told him to get.  Player had completely forgotten it was on his sheet.  He started reading the rule book to me and I just said I liked my interpretation better.  So it all worked out.  It did take me longer than I like to make it go but usually it does all work out in the end.

Makes sense.  And an interesting take.  My problem with this though is that this is somewhat included in Weak Immune System, or one of a few other categories.

Once again, this is 'an each to his own' viewpoint.

I know that no one likes having stuff done to them against their will.  I think the point I was trying to tiptoe around was that this was the only way to mechanically take advantage of Sensitive System without resorting to the claim that it works as John Shull said.

I guess, as a GM, a negative quality is only worth its weight in points is if I can use it in game at some point.  And Sensitive System is a glaring example of something I cannot use, and provides no real negative to an Awakened character.  Only a slight possibility of inhibiting choice later in his career.

[Onion Man]

A GM shouldn't be looking to mechanically take advantage of characters.  Shadowrun, like all RPGs, is a cooperative competitive engagement, not an adversarial one.

You've just highlighted the reason I avoid playing with fledgeling GMs (in all games), you've decided it is your job to take advantage of negative qualities rather than allowing your players to role play their negatives.

[Seeker]

A GM shouldn't be looking to mechanically take advantage of characters.  Shadowrun, like all RPGs, is a cooperative competitive engagement, not an adversarial one.

You've just highlighted the reason I avoid playing with fledgeling GMs (in all games), you've decided it is your job to take advantage of negative qualities rather than allowing your players to role play their negatives.

Okay.  Backpedal here.

Taking advantage of means as much as imposing penalties as it does offering up interesting roleplaying opportunities.

Sensitive System does not do that.

Scorched offers up roleplaying opportunities when dealing with Black IC or BTL's.  Makes the character sweat, and he feels the pressure of taking the quality.  He also feels more rewarded when he overcomes it.

Amnesia offers up a chance to create an engaging story with a character's background.

Each negative quality should give the character as much a portion of the spotlight, as his positive qualities do.

My problem with Sensitive System is that unless the player enforces some penalty on themselves (and in essence claims the negative quality as something that is quite real) it never comes up.  All it becomes is, as I said before, a free Magician quality.

Honestly, I only really play with friends.  I don't have a notebook of characters killed (had a GM who had a trophy book, and a special section for TPK's).  I don't try to get one over on my characters.

[Polymath76]

Just some FYSA info here for background flavor..

-Special Operators are typically the SMARTEST, most well rounded troops in whatever branch they're in. Being technologically illiterate is a no go. Two types of guys successfully  become Operators: super-fit PT studs that learn to be tech competent, and really brainy guys who grow a pair and become super-fit PT studs.
-Special Operators are NOT loners. That's movie and Image comics BS. If he's having psychological issues that make him the 'dangerous loner', it'd probably have to do with his post-military career experiences.
-Krav Maga has nothing to do with shooting ability or targeting. Hands, knees, elbows, sometimes feet, knives, sticks, and the butt of a rifle to the head is the extent of it (<--Kravist for 3 years now).

[John Shull]

I can't disagree more adamantly with the direction of the last couple of posts.

"I don't like how a natural combination of positive and negative qualities work together"

"So make a houserule against intelligent character optimization"

That's like saying I don't like how ECCM works with satellite uplinks, make a houserule banning satellite uplinks for any character with ECCM; or I don't like how adrenaline surge works with low initiative, make a houserule ruining adrenaline surge; or I don't like how infirm isn't a real penalty for a rigger, so why should riggers get 20 free BP.

It's flawed thinking.

Let me say I don't allow negative qualities that are not negatives. Saying that I don't have the worst case senario to give a negative either.  I had a Sensitive System Mage in game before and did not think it was in spirit of the rules but I could make it work.  Later on, several eps into the campaign, he gets chewed up and I give the medic working him 2 die penalty for every thing they try to do on him.  His system is just weirdly fickle and drug dosage and drugs themselves have to be chosen carefully.  It took a bit in game for the team to catch on what the issue was, most thought the medic was crapping his rolls.  Later on told him it cost an exta grand to fix him up and that he needs to get a medic alert bracelet for the future.  I think I called it Hitchcocks Syndrome and it was that heritary conditon his Sensative System comes from.  I also mentioned it would cost him some to put it in his Fake Sins if he was gonna get the braclet the medic told him to get.  Player had completely forgotten it was on his sheet.  He started reading the rule book to me and I just said I liked my interpretation better.  So it all worked out.  It did take me longer than I like to make it go but usually it does all work out in the end.

Makes sense.  And an interesting take.  My problem with this though is that this is somewhat included in Weak Immune System, or one of a few other categories.

Once again, this is 'an each to his own' viewpoint.

I know that no one likes having stuff done to them against their will.  I think the point I was trying to tiptoe around was that this was the only way to mechanically take advantage of Sensitive System without resorting to the claim that it works as John Shull said.

I guess, as a GM, a negative quality is only worth its weight in points is if I can use it in game at some point.  And Sensitive System is a glaring example of something I cannot use, and provides no real negative to an Awakened character.  Only a slight possibility of inhibiting choice later in his career.

It is every GM to do the best to make the rules work out the fairest way possible.  I see Sensative System and I just look at his character as being more fragile to shocks to it and that's it.  Still fights disease, heals, etc.  He never knows when it will come into play but when it does it does, kinda like allergies.  Those disads are not a game running thing but how the character is different from other characters thing.  It is not an invitation to the GM to bring the wraith, unless it is Borrowed Time or Enemy. 

[Jaffer]

**Update #3**

Name: Irving Fisher
Metatype: Human

Stats:
Body: 4
Agility: 5 (7)
Reaction: 5 (7)
Strength: 3
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3

Edge: 6
Essence: 4


Qualities:
Positive:
Blandness
Martial Arts: Krav Maga ( +1 to called shots to disarm )
Martial Arts: Krav Maga ( Ready a weapon as a free action )
Martial Arts: Krav Maga ( -1 to the negative for shooting in melee )
Restricted Gear

Negative:
Combat Monster
Signature (golden bullet fired into the target, post mortem)
Sensitive System


Skills:
Athletics (1)
Disguise (Camoflague +2) (2)
Infiltration (2)
Perception (1)
Longarms (Sniper Rifles) (6)
Unarmed (Martial Arts: Krav Maga) (4)
Pistols (1)
Automatics (1)
Armorer (Firearms) (2)
Navigation (1)
Survival (2)

Knowledge: Black Markets (2)
Knowledge: Fancy Restaurants (1)
Knowledge: Firearms (3)
Knowledge: Military (Scout/Sniper) (3)
Knowledge: Safe Houses (Runner Houses) (3)
Knowledge: Security Procedures (1)
Knowledge: Sniper shooting principles (i.e. windage, bullet drop) (5bp)


Language: English (N)
Language: Hebrew (1bp) (Where he was taught Krav Maga)


Augmentation: (All bioware)
Synaptic Booster (2)
Digestive Expansion
Muscle Toner (2)
Nictitating Membrane


Comlink:
Model: Renraku Sensei
OS: Renraku Ichi

Fake SIN:
SIN 5
SIN 4
SIN 3

Weapons:
Ranger Arms SM-4 (Inbuilt Smart System, Bipod, Skin link)
Ares Light Fire 70 (Silencer)

Armor:
Ulysses Line
Form Fitting Armor (Half Body Suit)

Gear:
Monocle (Visor style) (Smartlink, Vision Enhancement (3), Image Link, Skin link)
Ghillie suit (Urban)
Ghillie suit (Bush)
Backpack

Regular rounds
subsonic rounds
Gold rounds
Spare clips

Shop (Armorer)


Contacts:
Loyalty 1 / Connections 3 - Contract provider
Loyalty 3 / Connections 1 - Computer Expert / Hacker


Lifestyle: High


Bio:
Former Scout/Sniper.
was trained in snipers and advanced unarmed combat.
Started contracting after the crash.

Combat style:
Will wait for multiple days to make the shot.
Will pack up and try to blend into the crowd or bush after the shot.
Doesn't try to attract attention.

Krav Maga is used to disarm opponents, maybe even use their own weapon against them.

Bit of a recluse / hermit - does not talk much or get on with people.
When talking 'shop' the character becomes a bit more involved


-------------------------
Changes:
increased sniper to 6 and reduced melee to 4.
reduced pistols to 1
removed ambidexterity
Added navigation and survival.
Added Language: Hebrew for storyline matters.


Still to work on.
May remove the golden bullet signature and replace with enemy, making the characters former spotter his enemy.
May make slight modifications to the bioware, maybe include cats eyes (for night movement) or gills (for water infiltration)  These are still undecided.
balancing of everything still to happen.


Any ideas or sugestions welcome.

[eshoup1]

I think you have a good start but that perception 1 seems really low. You are only rolling 4 dice when looking through your scope while trying to spot a target. That seems extremely poor for someone who has had extensive military training in target identification. Having never been in the military I have no first hand experience, but from what I can recall about what I have seen... each person in the sniper team is trained to be both on the trigger and on the spotter scope. It makes sense that you would at least have a specialization in visual perception or maybe a few more points of perception. It is hard to hit what you can't see.

Just something to think about.

[John Shull]

The cat eyes may work pretty good.  Gills seem a reach unless you build up that aspect of the character, swimming and gear.  The golden bullet sig is a message sender and unless the message your wanting to send is a core part of the character I would look around a bit more before commiting to it.  Mind you anyone can send a gold bullet into someone as a FU to a baddie but the neg quality means you are OCD about having to put one in.  Enemy is good for storylines and the GM always gets something out of it. 

Some other random thoughts on the character trying to have him live up to the outline given.  Erased is an idea if your pulling jobs for old military contacts and explain why you don't have Records on File.  Crash can explain no SIN but military records don't erase so easy.  Might want a survival knife in your gear.  Distinctive style can be bought cheap in my games for 5 pt variety by getting military tatts, RANGER on the arm and the like.  How well does your character drive because most urban spec war groups have offensive driving courses.   Most Spec War have some paratrooper training.  Knowledge skill on enemies your unit engaged, ie, Republican Guard, Drug Cartels, Wildcats, CAS Ghosts, etc.  Also it is hard to make a fully actualized Spec War soldier on 400 pts.  So if your pulling your hair on the math juggle I understand.  I made one and skimped but had to use 450.   

[Glyph]

You definitely need either cat's eyes, or a low-light modification to your visor.  A sniper who can't see in the dark won't be good for much.  The problem with sniping is that it is a niche role, and this character is seriously limited outside of sniping.

On sensitive system, I said that personally, I had no problem with it.  I think a lot of people misunderstand why it is a flaw, when they say the only way to take advantage of it is to forcibly implant cyberware into a character.  It is not a roleplaying flaw, nor is it a situational penalty flaw.  It is a character advancement limiter flaw, something that hinders or completely curtails a potential avenue of character growth.

The problem some people have with flaws like this, is that they will be taken in areas the player is already disinterested in exploring.  The neo-Luddite shaman is likelier to take simsense vertigo than the hacker.  The troll muscle is likelier to take uncouth than someone who wants to eventually add a face secondary specialty to their character.  Someone who takes the SURGE quality of impaired Attribute is likely to do it for a dump stat, where the maximum dropping from 6 to 5 won't matter at all to them.

My attitude is that a limitation is a limitation, and every flaw will either be one the player will enjoy roleplaying, or one chosen for synergy with the build.  So I don't get too worked up that the player whose Logic is limited to 5 won't be likely to raise it past 3 anyways.  If you feel differently, though, you are better off either lowering the point value of the flaw to what you think it's really worth, or not allowing it altogether.  Letting a player pick a flaw, then doing a bunch of passive-aggressive things like forcibly implanting cyberware into him, will only lead to a less fun game and upset players.

[baronspam]

I agree with Glyph on the Sensitive system issue.  An awakened character, particularly adepts, can gain a considerable advantage by slipping a little bioware into their builds.  Sensitive system is a declaration for the character to more or less stick to the narrow path of magic only.  No heavily augmented character in their right mind will ever have it, its far to limiting for someone who will have alot of 'ware implated.  If it is going to be in the game at all it is going to be seen on characters who are going to take little to no 'ware.  Basically the quality takes the option of dipping into a bit of augmentation off the table, or at least makes it much less attractive.

[Kylen]

Iffn you don't mind my thoughts on Sensitive System:

I made a character (And I'm actually looking to pare it down, need help getting a point total so i can drop it down 50 points or so) that has this, and isn't awakened, or even cyber. I use it as part of a reason why he's not a hulked out street sam, or cocooned rigger instead of the smuggler he is. His body just straight up doesn't like augmentation, so the character's philosophy runs in tangent with that. Sure, it's gonna suck for him when he first gets his arm or leg blown off, and he loses that double essence to be useful again, but that'll be his choice. Or maybe he'll make the choice to live with out that limb and become more effective that way, helping make it a little more story worthy to see this character even LOOKING at a body shop.

Just the views of a player with a character that (currently) has the trait.

[Glyph]

@baronspam: adepts aren't actually that affected by sensitive system, since it only applies to cyberware.  Most augmented adepts get bioware such as muscle toner or synaptic boosters.  Some GMs house rule that it affects both, though.

@kylen: yeah, you're giving yourself a real challenge.  Shadowrun's transhumanist themes are reflected in a ruleset that gives you lots of incredibly cheap, easy boosts from using magic or augmentations.  Completely mundane characters are at a disadvantage, and can often be overshadowed by magical or augmented characters.  If you don't have any competition for your particular niche, though, you might be all right.