[Sichr]

For the record, I also don't like the imbalance of Adept Augmentation vs Tech

However, if dem's da' rules, shadowrunners can't afford to be picky on how they keep their edge...

And if any Freelancers are listening, I'm still waiting a Magic sourcebook that gives me the equivalent of an APDS spell-enhancement, but using the same drain and targeting area and just costs extra money....

I'm just sayin'....

I thought combat spells are never countered with an armor

Also, there is that essence 0,1/ magic8/initiation grade8 possibility for adepts...

[serraphin]

Might I ask - essence 0.1 magic 8?

Is this some rule uh...*cough*cheese*cough* I'm unaware of?

Surely with an essence of .1 and 8 initiation the max your magic could be is 2?

[Sichr]

no.
Your maximum magic is Magic + initiation. Your maximum possible Initiation is equal to your magic. You raise your magic to 7. Spend some Essence, lets say 5,9.
Thus your magic is 1.
You get 1st initiation grade = your maximum magic is 2
you raise your magic atribute to 2
You may take even another initiation, your magic is 2 so your max initiation grade is 2
etc
etc
etc
etc
You have magic 8
Your initiation grade is 8

It would take some excel calculation to make suma Karma cost

[serraphin]

Ah yes, my bad. Maths fail.

Seems a but pointless in my mind, if you're going to spend THAT much karma just get the magic 16. Hell that's a hulluva spend, way into three figures.

I'd have figured you're better off buying skills and gear (contact lenses, chameleon suits, etc).

O course I guess that's not quite what this discussion is about

[Shinobi Killfist]

Ah yes, my bad. Maths fail.

Seems a but pointless in my mind, if you're going to spend THAT much karma just get the magic 16. Hell that's a hulluva spend, way into three figures.

I'd have figured you're better off buying skills and gear (contact lenses, chameleon suits, etc).

O course I guess that's not quite what this discussion is about

Most people generally wont go that far, hell just getting the money together to go that far would be hard.  But 5.99 essence of cyber/bioware is really powerful especially if you get into decent grades of it.  Would a 16 magic be better?  For a full mage maybe, for an adept, probably not.  There is a sort of point of diminishing returns on these things.  Once you get past the I killed em good with my spells how many more dice do you need.  And given how the drain works on summoning you effectively cap the force well before where a magic 16 is needed.  For most though small amounts of essence friendly ware is something you can pull off in game and it works out on the power gamer level.

 For physical adept powers sure I can easily come up with 16 magic worth to spend things on, but since cyber/bio is frequently less costly in essence than how much you spend in magic for the same type of mod you just purely make out as an adept.  A quick easy example is initiative mods, 4 actions costs you 4 magic or 1.5 essence(2 magic), visual mods are cheaper as well.  When you go that route and focus on getting the cyber/bio that is just cheaper versions of the adept powers you have 8 magic of mods and effectively another 20+worth in cyber/bioware. 

In the long run there is no reason not to be an adept due to this, but depending on the campaigns you are in there may not really be a long run. 

[Sichr]

well magic 8  initiation 8 doesn`t mean magic 16
But I agree that I dont think there will be too much of this Cybered magical characters. Mage with eyes and UWB radar is enought...UWB becomes LOS when payed by essence so that is killing machine in close quaters...

[Charybdis]

no.
Your maximum magic is Magic + initiation. Your maximum possible Initiation is equal to your magic. You raise your magic to 7. Spend some Essence, lets say 5,9.
Thus your magic is 1.
You get 1st initiation grade = your maximum magic is 2
you raise your magic atribute to 2
You may take even another initiation, your magic is 2 so your max initiation grade is 2
etc
etc
etc
etc
You have magic 8
Your initiation grade is 8

It would take some excel calculation to make suma Karma cost

A) This example as written won't work. If a PC with Magic Rating 6 ungoes essence loss of 5.9, their magic rating is now Zero, and they are now a Mundane forever. (SR4A p.177)

B) So, modifying the example slightly, lets say the mage (with starting Magic @6) get 5.0 essence loss (leaving Magic at 1
This is an ugly option.... but here are the maths.

Anyways, assuming Initiation for the PC in question is done at minimim cost (Group Initiation plus Ordeals) the Cost to get to Grade 8 is : 121 karma
Note: For plain old Self initiation, no group or ordeals, this cost is actually: 225 karma

Assuming the PC began with a Magic rating of 6, but it's now 1, then we're using the standard costs to increase an attribute from 1 to 8 (cost for each improvement is new rating x 5), which totals out at: 175 karma

So, the PC in question has spent between 296 and 400 karma to undergo this little scenario.

Note: since Initiation grade can never exceed magic rating and if the PC loses too much magic (and drops an initiate grade because of it) then that level of initiation is lost permanently (along with all karma spent on that grade)
Therefore, so the initiate would have to do this in a particular order, namely:

A) Initiate to grade 1
B) Lose all their essence, reducing magic to 1
Note: A) and B) can occur in any order...
C) Raise Magic Attribute to 2
D) Raise Initiate Grade to 2
E) Raise Magic Attribute to 3
F) Raise Initiate Grade to 3
G) Raise Magic Attribute to 4
H) Raise Initiate Grade to 4
I) Raise Magic Attribute to 5
J) Raise Initiate Grade to 5
etc etc

[Charybdis]

I thought combat spells are never countered with an armor

Indirect combat spells are defended with 1/2 impact armour, a dodge roll and counterspelling

Considering their drain is so intense (especially the AoE versions), they're rarely a good option...

[Sichr]

If you are talking about indirect spells, then your APDS comaparation doenst stand
Still, considering that by indirect you mean area effect spells, it is like AP: 1/2 grenade...if anyone is crazy enought to overcast Fireball 12

Still...there is the possibility to use Blood Magic, if you are Mexi...oh sorry...Aztlan 
but that means you most posibly are not runner but "The oposing force "

[Charybdis]

If you are talking about indirect spells, then your APDS comaparation doenst stand
Still, considering that by indirect you mean area effect spells, it is like AP: 1/2 grenade...if anyone is crazy enought to overcast Fireball 12

Pretty sure it does. Indirect combat spells are like throwing grenades while you're still in the room. You may take out your target, but have to be very careful not to screw yourself over in the process.

All I'm saying is that we see all these neat new toys and combinations come out for augmented/tech individuals.
But other than increasing the force of the spell (and finding ways to cope with the drain), there's nothing you can do to make your spell more effective.

It's like telling the Street Sam:
-Yep, you've moved from a Heavy Pistol to a shotgun, but you're still only ever going to use regular ammo.

Oh, and Absorption is a very useful Metamagic for overccasting elemental spells. To date, my record is a F11 Lightning bolt with no drain... and have a session tonight where we're mid combat, and it may get that dangerous

Still...there is the possibility to use Blood Magic, if you are Mexi...oh sorry...Aztlan 
but that means you most posibly are not runner but "The oposing force "

Most definitely

[Sichr]

Well IDN...there is always a possibility to write your own formula to design the spell exactly by your needs. when upgrading his weapon, Sam is always limited to work with DV/AP stats (and possibly Pool modifiers) but he wont create anything unusual...just a better gun. On the other side...spells and their formula are limited only by your imagination...

[Crimsondude]

All this talk about adepts being screwed and pushed into getting cyber makes me wish someone wrote a PDF with optional rules to try and counter/balance out the shit SR4 costs for adepts.

Oh well.

[Sichr]

Read that, loved that...
IMO, this is just the numbers talk...quality of the character doesnt depend on stats but on the RP...IMO

[Charybdis]

All this talk about adepts being screwed and pushed into getting cyber makes me wish someone wrote a PDF with optional rules to try and counter/balance out the shit SR4 costs for adepts.

Oh well.

I love that PDF... it's awesome and my Phys ad uses it extensively

However in the context of this discussion that most-excellent PDF doesn't change:
- The costs of initiation
- The costs of raising attributes
- Better spell design

Well IDN...there is always a possibility to write your own formula to design the spell exactly by your needs. when upgrading his weapon, Sam is always limited to work with DV/AP stats (and possibly Pool modifiers) but he wont create anything unusual...just a better gun. On the other side...spells and their formula are limited only by your imagination...

Yes, however according to those rules, damage and effects are capped with Drain modifiers according to existing spell templates.

New Guns come out all the time which expand the rules with weapon mods (eg High Power chambering).
I'm wondering if there is ever going to be a similar mod/metamagic to increase a Spell DV.

[Sichr]

You mean changing (Power / Drain) ratio?