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SR6 Cyberlimbs capped at 6 str and 6 Agi RAW?

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markelphoenix

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« on: <07-15-20/2029:20> »
Reading through cyberlimbs, states they start at 2, then in the attribute increase section says rule of max of 4 applies.....way I am reading this, you buy a limb, starts at 2/2 then max you can raise is to 6/6 ....am I reading this right RAW?

Aria

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« Reply #1 on: <07-15-20/2032:31> »
The way I’ve read it you can upgrade as much as you have capacity for but it will only give you +4 max to your natural attribute...
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <07-15-20/2112:46> »
The way I’ve read it you can upgrade as much as you have capacity for but it will only give you +4 max to your natural attribute...

This.

If you have 6 Strength, you can potentially push a Cyberarm to 10 Strength.  It starts at 2, so you'd have to buy 8 strength increases to do this.  You'd have to buy 4 levels just to match your inherent 6 Strength.
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penllawen

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« Reply #3 on: <07-15-20/2152:06> »
Huh, I just noticed

“Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agili-ty, Armor, or Strength of the user”

Note: “either” and “or”. Can’t have more than one, it seems. So your melee Sam has to pick between leaving Agility at 2 or leaving Strength at 2. Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.

That’s gonna bite a lot of combat builds.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #4 on: <07-15-20/2313:44> »
Huh, I just noticed

“Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agili-ty, Armor, or Strength of the user”

Note: “either” and “or”. Can’t have more than one, it seems. So your melee Sam has to pick between leaving Agility at 2 or leaving Strength at 2. Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.

That’s gonna bite a lot of combat builds.

Yeah, not a fan of cyberlimbs.

Aria

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« Reply #5 on: <07-16-20/0330:08> »
Based on past editions of SR I will choose to ignore the interpretation of only adding one type of attribute to a limb... it would certainly crimp my ‘Alita’ inspired build. If you have capacity you can cram it in, always been that way. And as I’m the GM most of the time my word is LAW :D
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <07-16-20/0335:06> »
Cyberlimbs are good at low base stats, they're not really worth it at high base stats. And I don't think any table would follow such a strict interpretation that you can only boost 1 stat.
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penllawen

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« Reply #7 on: <07-16-20/0359:25> »
And I don't think any table would follow such a strict interpretation that you can only boost 1 stat.
It’s not a “strict interpretation”, it’s the RAW of the CRB after three major errata updates.

penllawen

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« Reply #8 on: <07-16-20/0533:38> »
Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.
The more I think about this, the less I like it.

(If you don't know 6e's RAW: cyberlimbs start at Str 2, Agi 2, Armour 0. Each +1 costs 1 point of capacity. They have 8 capacity for a synthetic limb and 15 for an obvious one. This contrasts sharply with 5e, where boosting the cyberlimb up to match your meat cost 0 capacity.)

There's an intuitiveness that's nice: all limbs start at basic human level, all boosts up from there cost the same, why would it make any difference to the limb how strong your flesh is? But mechanically it's punitive, especially for orcs and trolls. It's not unreasonable to think a troll combat build will have Agi 5 and Str 8. That's 9 of their 15 points of capacity (and 1 point of essence) just to get the cyberlimb equal the flesh arm it replaced. Why would they bother?

Seems like you have to scale limb capacity to the meatbod's base stats somehow. I think SR5 made the wiser choice here.

Finstersang

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« Reply #9 on: <07-16-20/0740:54> »
And I don't think any table would follow such a strict interpretation that you can only boost 1 stat.
It’s not a “strict interpretation”, it’s the RAW of the CRB after three major errata updates.

Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.

Plus the capacity isn’t enough anyway - just getting Str 6 / Agi 6 in the limb is 100% the capacity of a synthetic limb or 8/15 the capacity for an obvious limb. Not much room left for anything else.
The more I think about this, the less I like it.

(If you don't know 6e's RAW: cyberlimbs start at Str 2, Agi 2, Armour 0. Each +1 costs 1 point of capacity. They have 8 capacity for a synthetic limb and 15 for an obvious one. This contrasts sharply with 5e, where boosting the cyberlimb up to match your meat cost 0 capacity.)

There's an intuitiveness that's nice: all limbs start at basic human level, all boosts up from there cost the same, why would it make any difference to the limb how strong your flesh is? But mechanically it's punitive, especially for orcs and trolls. It's not unreasonable to think a troll combat build will have Agi 5 and Str 8. That's 9 of their 15 points of capacity (and 1 point of essence) just to get the cyberlimb equal the flesh arm it replaced. Why would they bother?

Seems like you have to scale limb capacity to the meatbod's base stats somehow. I think SR5 made the wiser choice here.

That´s a very valid problem. While 5th Edition Cyberlimbs were somewhat broken because you could pretty much ignore your meat stats, Attribute increases through Cyberlimbs in 6th Edition are not only limited by the +4 cap, but were also further nerfed by the decreased base stats and , most importantly, by the fact that they all cost capacity right now, leaving very little room for the actual fun stuff like Cyberweapons and other Accessories.

In 5th, you could also increase the Attributes by customizing the Base Limb up to the natural maximum(!) before adding enhancements for capacity. Now that definitely turned out waaaaay too cheesy, but was neverless confirmed by various droplets of Errata.

The general idea of seperating cyberlimb customization and Attribute Enhancements is pretty solid, though. When executed right, it could be the best aid to the current problems with Cyberlimbs. How about Something like this:

"In addition to (or rather: prior to) Attribute Enhancements, you can also buy a customized Cyberlimb that´s tailored to your own physical frame and musculature. Each Attribute Increase (Agility and/or Strength) through Customization increases the base Cost of the Cyberlimb by 25%, but without using up capacity. Custimization can only increase Str and Agi up to your current, unaugmented Agi and Str values (not the natural maximum!), after which you can further increase the Cyberlimb via using Attribute increases using up Capacity. As usual, you can only increase your current natural Attributes by +4; if your Cyberlimb Attributes stack up higher, you have to train your natural Str and Agi to unlock their potential".

I thank that would be a neat and lightweight solution that, admittingly, would also fit nicely into an upcoming Augmentation Rulebook. A few additional notes on that concept:

  • I think a percentual cost increase works better with partial Cyberlimbs etc. and also helps to better articulate the difference between Costumization and Enhancements. However, you could also use the the same flat +5000 Nuyen cost as with the existing Attribute enhancements; that would make cost calculation easier.
  • As a further balancing measure, you could add an additional "availabilty tax" for customization, though I couldn´t find a good formular for it.
  • Crazy idea for the cheeselords and hardcore Cyberpunks: "If you replace all of your Limbs (including the Skull and Torso), you don´t have a "natural" Strength and Agility anymore. Instead, you may customize your Cybertorso up to your natural maximum and then treat its Attributes (before further increases that use capacity) as your natural Strength and Agility for the purpose of determining the further limitations of your Cyberlimb Attributes" Lightweight rules for Full-Body-Cyborgs ? ;D
 
« Last Edit: <07-16-20/0745:13> by Finstersang »

penllawen

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« Reply #10 on: <07-16-20/1231:21> »
Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.
Eh. Pregen characters that break RAW is a grand old Shadowrun tradition, so who knows what to believe?

A case in point, looking at 6e right now, the Troll Street Sam has "cyberarm (Agility 5, Strength 10; holster, arm slide, retractable spur, small smugglers compartment)."

That's 11 points of capacity for the stat increases, 5 for the holster, 3 for the arm slide, 5 for the smuggling compartment, and 3 for the spur: a total of 27 points. The maximum capacity of an cyberarm is 15 points.

Sooooooo if you're deciding the worked examples can override the wording in RAW, does that mean the RAW cyberarm capacity is wrong?

(BTW did I mention this is a book that has had three errata releases?)

Finstersang

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« Reply #11 on: <07-16-20/1326:28> »
Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.
Eh. Pregen characters that break RAW is a grand old Shadowrun tradition, so who knows what to believe?

Yeah, but that´s a separate (although infuriating) issue. Of course the Streetsam isn´t chargen-Legal by any means, because when are they ever in this godforsaken mess of organized incompetence?  ::)

However, there´s still the fact that this character has more than one Cyberlimb Attribute boosted. And it´s much easier to assume that this character merely has too much other stuff build in than assuming that it´s not possible to boost more than one Attribute RAW just because some (slightly) ambiguous phrasing. Think about it that way: If that was really the intended reading, do you really think that CGL would miss the opportunity to further rub it into our faces how they managed to fuck up Cyberlimbs for good? "Remember guys, only 2 Edge per combat round" :P

If anything, the Streetsam fuckup most likely hints to a previous state of the rules where Attribute Enhancements didn´t use up capacity. Of course, the math would still be off by 3 points, but yeah: Classic CGL Quality Control. Also, there are sample NPCs in Firing Line with Cyberlimbs as well, all with more 1 Attribute boosted.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <07-16-20/1413:51> »
Sorry, but that assumption is just the updated version of "ACKCHYUALLY, Cyberlimbs have their own Rea and Body". Meaning that there´s one single slightly ambigous line ("Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user.") that could be maliciously interpreted that way, but only when you squint hard enough and ignore every example in the CRB and other publications where characters have more than one Cyberlimb Attribute higher than 2.

Penllawen you do have a point in that the language should have been more technically precise, but Fintersang is explaining what's "clearly" the intention.

Yes, I emphasize with "but it SAYS..." but as infuriating as it is, sometimes the RAI trumps RAW.  Yes, I agree this ought to be fixed (more accurately: a fix for a different problem shouldn't have made a new problem to fix) but there are much more important issues to continue to work on that'll keep this on the back burner at best.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #13 on: <07-16-20/1501:43> »
Yes, I agree this ought to be fixed (more accurately: a fix for a different problem shouldn't have made a new problem to fix) but there are much more important issues to continue to work on that'll keep this on the back burner at best.
Huh? I understsand time is a finite resource but this isn't much time, surely. Take this sentence: "Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user" And delete one word to make: "Cyberlimbs can be used to add to Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user". If you're feeling frisky, go as far as "Cyberlimbs can be used to add to Agility, Armor, and/or Strength of the user"

...and it is fixed. I am vaguely aware there are complications around page layouts and preserving page numbers that make large scale changes to the PDF difficult, but I don't see how that deleting one word can cause issues with layout.

There's been enough time since 6e shipped to release, what, five sourcebooks? But not enough time to delete one word in one file? We've surely spent longer talking about it just now than it would take to fix.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <07-16-20/1535:54> »
Bureaucracy.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.