[Xenon]

This could mean the Hacker has first to use Brute Force to gain "User" access (which he would gain automatically on the "master Device" protecting the PAN)
With that User access he could be now an "Outsider" (Matrix Actions that allow Outsider Access) for all Devices in the PAN.

As I understands it, in this edition you don't gain access on individual devices as you did in earlier editions, you just gain User access on the entire 'network' with all its devices at once.

When attacking a device you basically only need to figure out which 'network' it belong to (and with it the host, commlink, RCC or datajack that will defend it).

[Banshee]

This could mean the Hacker has first to use Brute Force to gain "User" access (which he would gain automatically on the "master Device" protecting the PAN)
With that User access he could be now an "Outsider" (Matrix Actions that allow Outsider Access) for all Devices in the PAN.

As I understands it, in this edition you don't gain access on individual devices as you did in earlier editions, you just gain User access on the entire 'network' with all its devices at once.

When attacking a device you basically only need to figure out which 'network' it belong to (and with it the host, commlink, RCC or datajack that will defend it).

Yes, I missed this part earlier.

Access is based on network not devices as Xenon says

[Banshee]

Dataspike the gun or commlink... yes you can do so directly as long as you can detect it ... if protected by the decker/rigger it would gain the benefit of that defenders firewall defense even if it's far away ... unless they are so far away that they lose connection (ie noise)

Rather than track condition monitor damage, I would rather apply a Status effect to the device and simply apply a staged ongoing penalty, such as -2/-4/bricked.  Do you see any issue with that approach?  Or does that break something?

Kind of depends on how you determine results I guess... ultimately depends on your group though. Try it and see, but I wouldn't say it breaks anything immediately

[Xenon]

The question that springs to mind is; does slaving the PAN of one user to a device like a cyberdeck create a new PAN?

While Banshee's intention was that you could basically include an unlimited amount of devices in your own personal area network, rule-wise, however, it seem as if you can only slave a very small number of devices in your PAN and in your PAN you typically only have one commlink, deck/cyberjack or RCC acting as a 'gateway' to provide matrix attributes for you and your wireless devices inside the wireless network.


SR6 p. 173
These are networks composed of a commlink and/or a deck, with a small number of devices slaved behind it.

SR6 p. 174
Data Processing is also effective in determining the number of devices that can be slaved to it.

SR6 p. 197
An RCC can have a number of slaved drones equal to its Rating x 3.

SR6 p. 267
Commlinks can have a maximum number of “slaves” equal to their Data Processing.

I think the answer is no, to be honest, because the samurai is still running a persona that his PAN is attached to. The icons may be hidden by virtue of being protected by the decker, but ultimately, the samurai's PAN and his icons are still attached to his persona and so would appear near the device his persona is formed on.

Pretty sure all devices have their own icons no matter if they belong to a personal area network, a wide area network or don't belong to any 'network' at all.


Dataspike also don't require any access on the personal area network at all.

You just spike whatever icon you wish (but if the icon is part of a larger network then it might still use matrix attributes of the one commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack, rcc or host which act as the 'gateway' of the network).

[ZeroSum]

Pretty sure all devices have their own icons no matter if they belong to a personal area network, a wide area network or don't belong to any 'network' at all.

Possibly. The CRB only talks about PANs:

Programs and devices attached to the PAN appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona.

That doesn't say that the device icons disappear, only that they appear as being carried by the persona.

This comes back to the eternal question of "what do I see in AR/VR"?

The above could be read either as:
1. When a device icon becomes part of a PAN, it is subsumed by the persona and appears as a smaller representation of itself being carried by the persona.
or
2. Devices that are part of a PAN appear both on their devices as usual, and as a small representation of itself carried by the persona.

Dataspike also don't require any access on the personal area network at all.

You just spike whatever icon you wish (but if the icon is part of a larger network then it might still use matrix attributes of the one commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack, rcc or host which act as the 'gateway' of the network).

I agree. I just don't necessarily think Dataspike is the best use of your resources, from an action economy perspective. Unless you can reliably inflict 9+ DV (after device resistance) it will take two major actions just to brick one device; screwing with equipment through spoof command or edit file can have immediate effects and force your opponents to spend their own actions reacting to you.

Tactically, I personally prefer the latter in a combat situation.

[Xenon]

This comes back to the eternal question of "what do I see in AR/VR"?

I will see the icon of your wireless enabled smartgun and your wireless enabled car and all your other wireless enabled devices no matter if they are part of your personal area network or not. Not sure why you think the size of the icon seem to matter....?

If your personal area network (you commlink - or whatever data processing enabled device you are using as a 'gateway' for your 'network') is running silent then I first need to take an opposed matrix perception test to spot it.

I just don't necessarily think Dataspike is the best use of your resources, from an action economy perspective. Unless you can reliably inflict 9+ DV (after device resistance) it will take two major actions just to brick one device; screwing with equipment through spoof command or edit file can have immediate effects and force your opponents to spend their own actions reacting to you.

It depend on the situation.

In this edition it is no longer is a free action to turn off wireless for all your wireless enabled devices, every 3 box of matrix damage cause a negative dice pool modifier of 1 dice when using the device, unlike previous edition (where the firewall retaliated on failed attack actions) in this edition most people (pretty much anyone that isn't a decker or technomancer) don't have any way to fight back anyway and normally only the user's commlink have a firewall rating (so if you brick that one.......)

Not sure what you think Edit file would accomplish as rewriting the boot code (for example) is the Format Device action (which require Admin access) rather than the Edit File action (which only require User access), but this action also often need to be followed up with a Reboot Device action (which also require admin access).

The Edit File action seem to be mostly used when messing with file icons rather than device icons. Such as editing out the team of the live feed file icon as they walk pass a security camera. Unlike Data spike, the Action also cannot be used unless you have User access to the 'network' where the file is you wish to Edit.

Spoof Command could be useful when for example instructing the on-board autopilot of an enemy drone to open fire on the opposing team, but this doesn't really work if the opposing rigger is already remote controlling the drone...

[ZeroSum]

@ Xenon
Because the PAN section is ambiguous?

 It's not the size of the icon that matters as much as the fact that icons that are part of your PAN appear as if they are carried by your persona according to the CRB.

What, exactly, that means is not black and white. Feel free to disagree with me, but there is no need to treat my opinion as if it's completely nonsensical when there is clearly some ambiguity in the phrasing.

As for action economy; you're right, I forgot that Edit File requires user access, so this would not be a great option in combat. But nowhere I. The description does it say that it only applies to "files" per se; it even specifically mentions tricking camera footage, so it seems only logical that it could also be used to alter someone's perception of the world by adding data to an image or sound  link feed, for instance, in order to cause a distraction or confuse your opponents.

And if your opponents are running wireless gear, Spoof Command can be used to take any action you could normally do, including ejecting smartgun magazines, switching fire modes, and so on.

It seems to me like you some times present your opinion as fact when there is some ambiguity in what can and can not be inferred from the rules. If there is even a slight chance that two people could read the same text and come to different conclusion, is it not in the common interest to figure out how to improve upon it instead of just saying "no, you're wrong, and this is how it is"?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when someone points out a fact I've misunderstood or missed completely, but a lot of what is being discussed here and in other threads are not facts, they are opinions and interpretations. Exchanging opinions with an open mind is, to me, far preferable.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

But nowhere [in] [t]he description does it say that it only applies to "files" per se; it even specifically mentions tricking camera footage, so it seems only logical that it could also be used to alter someone's perception of the world by adding data to an image or sound  link feed, for instance, in order to cause a distraction or confuse your opponents.

It is nearly impossible to guess what the original idea behind Edit (File) is because it is nearly a direct copy&paste from 4th to 5th to Sixth World.

With it being described as capable of altering a video stream, I always considered the Matrix following *nix's everything is a file philosophy.

Naturally, I expect most GMs to have absolutely no idea about that and always expect serious pushback on the thought...

[Xenon]

It's not the size of the icon that matters as much as the fact that icons that are part of your PAN appear as if they are carried by your persona according to the CRB.

I am trying to understand what game mechanical impact this have. If any.
How am I or my actions (or anything really) affected if the icons are smaller or seem to be carried by your persona.
Help me understand. Have I missed something?

But nowhere I. The description does it say that it only applies to "files"

SR6 p. 181 Edit File
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file...If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).

[Iron Serpent Prince]

SR6 p. 181 Edit File
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file...If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).

*nix's everything is a file philosophy.

[penllawen]

But nowhere I. The description does it say that it only applies to "files"

SR6 p. 181 Edit File
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file...If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).

Rather unpleasantly snarky, this post, given the part of the quote you elided with an ellipsis says "If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per combat round for as long as you want to keep the edit going."

...which isn't really a "file" as such, is it? And in fact that was ISP's exact counter example.

[Xenon]

First of all.
I was replying to ZeroSum that said that the description of Edit File action didn't mention that it applies to 'Files'. To me it seem to be obvious that the description of Edit File action mention that it applies to Files (and I felt it strange that ZeroSum somehow missed this), but rather than arguing my case I decided to just quote two passes from the rules. Bold emphasis was mine.


Secondly.
While SR5 made a point of being a lot more distinct on this point, even SR6 differentiate between four different Icons. Persona Icons, Device Icons, Host Icons.... and File Icons. In addition to the four Icon types SR6 also talk about 'networks' ('networks' that are either stationary - WANs, or mobile - PANs).

• Send Message and Trace Icon actions seem to work on Personas (does not seem to work on Files, although Files can be attached in a message)
• Control Device, Format Device, Reboot Device actions seem to work on Devices (does not seem to work on Files)
• Enter Host action seem to work on Hosts (does not seem to work on Files)
• Backdoor Entry, Brute Force, Probe actions seem to work on 'networks' (does not seem to work on Files)
• Crack File, Encrypt File, Set Data Bomb... and Edit File actions seem to work on Files (and does not seem to work on Personas, Hosts, Devices or 'networks').

[Banshee]

Just a quick weigh in here based on what I wrote. (I did not write the example you guys quoted)

If you want to loop a live video feed... use control device or spoof command. But if you want to alter a recorded video of your team's infiltration then it is an edit file. So in my opinion the yes edit file only works on files .. but yes many many things can count as files

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Just a quick weigh in here based on what I wrote. (I did not write the example you guys quoted)

If you want to loop a live video feed... use control device or spoof command. But if you want to alter a recorded video of your team's infiltration then it is an edit file. So in my opinion the yes edit file only works on files .. but yes many many things can count as files

I hate to break it to you Banshee, but the video feed is right in the Edit File Action description.  It isn't an example, it is the rule itself...  I'll quote the whole thing for reference (for those who can't look it up).

Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file—a short paragraph of text, a single detail of an image, or two or three seconds of video or audio (you and your gamemaster can work out what exactly “one detail” means). Your gamemaster may impose penalties on the test if your edit is particularly intricate or tricky. If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per combat round for as long as you want to keep the edit going. If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).

(EDITed: to clean up the copy & paste)

[Banshee]

Just a quick weigh in here based on what I wrote. (I did not write the example you guys quoted)

If you want to loop a live video feed... use control device or spoof command. But if you want to alter a recorded video of your team's infiltration then it is an edit file. So in my opinion the yes edit file only works on files .. but yes many many things can count as files

I hate to break it to you Banshee, but the video feed is right in the Edit File Action description.  It isn't an example, it is the rule itself...  I'll quote the whole thing for reference (for those who can't look it up).

Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file—a short paragraph of text, a single detail of an image, or two or three seconds of video or audio (you and your gamemaster can work out what exactly “one detail” means). Your gamemaster may impose penalties on the test if your edit is particularly intricate or tricky. If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per combat round for as long as you want to keep the edit going. If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).

(EDITed: to clean up the copy & paste)

Huh!? I don't remember writing it that way, well either I got talked into it or it was added later then. 😉

Carry on then ... without changing then yeah edit file works on live video feeds.