[Noble Drake]

No.

What a wonderfully robust and well-phrased rebuttal. You've convinced me - rules that literally do not appear in the book apply, even if somehow a person has never heard of such a rule because this particular book is their first experience of the system. I can't believe I ever thought otherwise.

[ZeroSum]

While I do agree that the curt response from Xenon was unnecessary, I do want to point out that earlier in the thread we agreed, and we still do, on what is now being discussed.

I made this post on the first page, which I think illustrates that RAW does in fact tell you when actions are allocated, and it is at the start of the Combat Round, not the Player Turn (capitalization mine for emphasis): https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30286.msg527345#msg527345

[Xenon]

rules that literally do not appear in the book apply

Shadowrun rules list things that are allowed.
Shadowrun rules don't list things that are not allowed.

For customization karma to carry over post chargen there must first exist an explicit rule that describe/allow this. There isn't, hence it is not allowed.

In SR5 there was an explicit rule that described that you were allowed to bring left over karma into the game. It also explained the cap on the number of points you were allowed to bring with you. In SR5 it was allowed (within limits).

In SR6 there is no such explicit rule. In SR6 it is not allowed. If this is not intended, then it will be fixed in a future errata (but at this point I have no reason to believe that this would not be intended).

[Noble Drake]

Shadowrun rules list things that are allowed.

Correct. The rules list that you are allowed 50 karma at character creation (give or take qualities).

For customization karma to carry over post chargen there must first exist an explicit rule that describe/allow this. There isn't, hence it is not allowed.

In SR5 there was an explicit rule that described that you were allowed to bring left over karma into the game. It also explained the cap on the number of points you were allowed to bring with you. In SR5 it was allowed (within limits).

The explicit rule that describes/allows carrying Karma to post chargen is the one that says you get 50 karma.

It doesn't say they go away. There is no reason to believe they go away.

Just like the rules don't say that the gear you buy automatically goes away after you use it on a job, so that doesn't happen either.

The SR5 rule you mention does not an "enabler" rule providing you with an option you wouldn't otherwise have given the language of other rules, it's a "limiter" rule stopping something that would otherwise be allowed to do.

That's how "list things that are allowed" rule systems work.

[Michael Chandra]

'It's chargen. You are creating your character. Spend it or lose it.' A GM has every ability to argue that and put their foot down.

Clarification is needed. But 'the rules don't forbid abusive case X explicitly so I'll abuse that' is a very poor argument when a GM can veto any character.

[Kirklins]

I will point out that there is a cap on nuyen that can be carried onward at that point. As there is a nuyen -  karma exchange value in charge I take the assumption of a limit as given. But not stated directly

[Xenon]

The rules list that you are allowed 50 karma at character creation (give or take qualities).

50 Customization Karma...which you spend on four different things (skill advancement, attribute advancement, qualities or resources) at step four of character creation (which is conveniently named Spend Customization Karma)

There is no reason to believe they go away.

There is no reason to believe that customization karma must be spend while you are actually customizing your character?
There is no reason to believe that since there are no rules allowing you to carryover customization karma you cannot do it?

Interesting...

(I can't really say I agree with your reading or on your interpretation on how the rule structure in Shadowrun works; but it is your table, your rules).

That's how "list things that are allowed" rule systems work.

There is a list of things you can do with your customization karma. It contain 4 things and the list does not seem to be open ended. Carryover customization karma is not one of the four things you can do with them. It used to be a thing in previous edition, but it was also only a thing because there was a rule explicitly allowing you to carryover (a maximum of 7 in this case).

That because there is no explicit rule forbidding you from carryover karma (rather than an explicit rule to allow you to carry over karma... which would follow the normal rule structure of Shadowrun and which was also precisely what previous editions had) you think there is reason to believe that you are still allowed to carryover up to 70 customization karma after character generation anyway?


That mean that, according to your reading at least, I can start a game at your table by initiating up to 5 times in a row?

Since you will also not find any explicit rule forbidding you from initiating during chargen it must, according to your reading at least, mean that it is allowed to also initiate during chargen?

I will point out that there is a cap on nuyen that can be carried onward at that point. As there is a nuyen -  karma exchange value in charge I take the assumption of a limit as given. But not stated directly

If the intent is that you should be allowed to carryover customization karma in SR6 then there need to be an explicit rule allowing it (and in that case the rules as they are written would need an official errata). This is how the rule structure in Shadowrun work. In the previous edition you were explicitly allowed to to carryover a maximum of 7 karma. In this edition you are not.

If the intent is that you should not be allowed to carryover customization karma in SR6 then the rules as they are written are correct (and they are not in a need of errata). Having said that, since at least one person find this ambiguous it would not hurt if there was something added to clarify that you are not allowed to carryover customization karma in this edition.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Everyone who's saying the question of carryover Karma deserves clarification is correct.

[Shinobi Killfist]

'It's chargen. You are creating your character. Spend it or lose it.' A GM has every ability to argue that and put their foot down.

Clarification is needed. But 'the rules don't forbid abusive case X explicitly so I'll abuse that' is a very poor argument when a GM can veto any character.

I fail to see what is abusive by saving the karma for later.  While it allows a wider range of things to spend it on you know have training times to deal with. trying to get people to finesse their character down to the last penny doesn't seem like a good intent with all the various odd costs. I'd lean more towards that being abusive to the players by the GM.

[Noble Drake]

50 Customization Karma...which you spend on four different things (skill advancement, attribute advancement, qualities or resources) at step four of character creation (which is conveniently named Spend Customization Karma)

I'm just gonna say that there is nothing inherent in any of the words you emphasize that says it has to be done now.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the intent of the rules to not carry stuff forward from character creation.

I'm just saying that linguistically, there's nothing present that actually communicates that you can't as an example save 2 of your customization karma because you don't want what it can buy you.

Anyone reading the current rules and coming to the belief that keeping customization karma for later use is A) intuiting the intent (whether accurate or not is unknown without clarification), or B) applying rules they know from a source other than the current rules.

[Xenon]

The rule structure in Shadowrun is that it will allow you to do things.
If there is no explicit rule that allow you to do a thing then it is by default forbidden.

While this is probably quite often confusing for new players, this is how the rule structure in Shadowrun look like.



This mean that, by default, you are not allowed to spend your customization karma to initiate, submerge or on attributes, skills, qualities, spells, binding foci or taking them with you after character generation or converting them to resources or buying contacts anything else you can think about.



The only reason you are allowed to spend them on skill advancement, attribute advancement, qualities and resources is because of this single sentence:

SR6 p. 66 Step Four: Spend Customization Karma
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).




The only reason you were allowed to take left over karma with you after character generation in 5th edition was because of this single sentence:

SR5 p. 98 Step Seven: Spending Your Leftover Karma
If a player wishes to keep some Karma for use later in the game, she may do so, though the maximum carryover is 7 Karma.


In SR6, however, this does not seem to be allowed.

There is no rule forbidding you from saving customization karma post chargen in SR6, but since there is no rule allowing you to do it it is by default forbidden.



The only reason you were allowed to spend left over karma on Contacts during character generation in 5th edition (beyond the free Charisma x 3 additional Karma that was 'earmarked for Contacts) was because of this:

SR5 p. 98 Contacts
Every character receives free Karma to spend on their initial contacts. This Karma is equal to a Character’s Charisma rating x 3.

SR5 p. 98 Step Seven: Spending Your Leftover Karma
Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any rough edges, picking up or improving skills, buying additional spells, acquiring bound spirits, bonding foci to be used at the start of the game, purchasing contacts, etc. Refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma.

SR5 p. 98 Additional Purchases and Restrictions table
Item: Contacts
Karma Cost: 1 Karma for each point of Connections Rating, 1 Karma for each Loyalty Rating (minimum Karma requirement = 2)
Restrictions: A single contact may not have more than 7 Karma spent on them at character creation. There are no limits on how many contacts the character may purchase


In SR6, however, contacts is not something you are allowed to spend Customization Karma on and instead you are restricted to this:

SR6 p. 66-67 Contacts
During character creation, you have a total of Charisma x 6 points to spend on Connection and Loyalty ratings for your contacts, and at this point, neither rating can be higher than the character’s Charisma.

There is no rule forbidding you from spending customization karma on contacts (or initiation or binding foci or whatever you can think of), but since there is no rule allowing you to do it it is by default forbidden.

[Xenon]

OK. I think we are just going around in circles here (trying to convince someone on the internet is often futile)

I don't really care if you allow your players to bring up to 70 customization karma with them post chargen or if you allow them to initiate up to 5 times during chargen. It is your table and it is your rules.

(but if you are serious about trying to understand how the rule structure work in Shadowrun I urge you to read through my post a few times - I guarantee that it will help you resolving other Shadowrun-related rules in the future)


For now at least, let us just agree to disagree.

Have a nice day sir

[Noble Drake]

We are definitely going in circles, and both trying to help the other understand the structure of language as it applies to rules.

We just disagree on the detail of what the book saying "you have these points" and "you can spend them on these things" means in regards to the unsaid idea of having those points and spending them on those things later.

I will always stand by that the rules of a game, being a list of things that you are allowed to do, must actually say something for it to be true. So rules saying "you have X" but not being accompanied by "and X expires at this point" means X doesn't expire.