[HP15BS]

I've been looking to make a decent alchemist, and I gotta say, I just don't get the antipathy I saw in old threads for (contact) capsule preps.

For one, how is it really any different than a capsule round filled with toxins? The mechanics are the same, except one costs a whole lot more to run with.

Yes, it effectively gets around the whole "no making two attacks at once" rule, but it does so in a way that's virtually identical to the toxin capsules (the "2nd attack" rolls the toxin's stats or the prep's stats, not your own), and plenty of other perfectly valid options get around it, too.

Drones and spirits effectively allow your character to literally multiply their attacks, but those are fine; it's only alchemy bullets (-4/+4) that're a problem?

- Alchemy capsule rounds (-4/+4), which you have to prep one-by-one, each of which is going to be less potent than just casting a spell on the spot, and each of which will either take up valuable space in your vault of ages or else start to degrade immediately.

I just don't see the problem - either logically, or balance-wise.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm not fully up on the magic rules, especially the Alchemy angle as I've never seen anyone use it.  So pardon what might sound like a stupid question:

how do you keep the contact trigger from activating when you put the ammo in the gun?  Or from moving along the barrel after firing?

[Eddren]

To the first question, Enchanter's Gloves, although the old trick was to do the preparation as the very last step and then carefully load it without ever taking contact off until it's in the mag--Maybe even using a machine to do the loading part, so that you can absolutely minimize living contact with preparations already in the mag.

EDIT: --And to the second question, I guess however the capsule round ordinarily keeps the liquids intact until the time of deployment.

[Jack_Spade]

The main reason was, that the preparation is under too much stress when fired from a gun (And that there is an issue with burst fire where the rules would get weird. That's the reason why the new alchemical bullet spell from FA can only be fired from SS weapons)

Street lethal now has an Air Bow that can fire arrows like a rifle. Arrows are explicitly ok to be used in alchemy, so that is the way I'd suggest to go.

[Michael Chandra]

Poisons strike at the end of the current or next combat turn. Most fights don't even last that long. That's way different from '2 attacks now and let's ignore the rules about how the trigger needs to remain intact'.

[Mirikon]

As others have said, things get very complicated, very fast. Even with enchanted arrows and the Air Bow, you still have to deal with the two attack actions thing. The most common sense one I've seen is a GM making you choose between the magic effect (treating it like a touch spell) or the weapon attack, dealing damage. Otherwise, I've had good results with 'spell tags' on an arrow or throwing knife. Throw it one pass, and set off the Fireball on the next one. Works really well if you have more passes than your target does.

[HP15BS]

The main reason was, that the preparation is under too much stress when fired from a gun (And that there is an issue with burst fire where the rules would get weird. That's the reason why the new alchemical bullet spell from FA can only be fired from SS weapons)

Street lethal now has an Air Bow that can fire arrows like a rifle. Arrows are explicitly ok to be used in alchemy, so that is the way I'd suggest to go.

The stress clearly doesn't apply to the liquid inside a capsule.
Burst fire would indeed prove headachey, but useful preps are too valuable to just spray away anyways.

Don't have the brand new book. That weapon use the longarms skill?

Poisons strike at the end of the current or next combat turn. Most fights don't even last that long. That's way different from '2 attacks now and let's ignore the rules about how the trigger needs to remain intact'.

Good point. I forgot that the fastest poisons still don't apply until the end of a turn.

And we're not ignoring any rules. Remember, the lynchpin is actually the liquid inside; it's not getting damaged in any way by being fired, nor by splashing onto the target.

As for the 2 attacks thing:
The alchemist gunman isn't actually making two attacks. As stated in the OP, the preparation itself is the attacker. You get to roll no attributes, no skills, no edge. You are not attacking with a spell.

The attacker really is effectively the prep, not its creator or wielder.

And if that logic can't apply to preps, then it shouldn't be able to apply to spirits, etc (which are much more powerful in virtually every respect, btw).

[Michael Chandra]

You're clearly reaching to excuse this, going as far as to claim it's no worse than venoms and that a liquid is not disturbed when it tumbles about after being fired from a gun. If you don't actually want a debate but just want people to justify your desires, it would be better to not post in the Rules forum, or make it a houserule topic. Right now I think there is no point to this debate so will withdraw from it.

[Marcus]

Ok HP15BS, the heart of the hate, is a lore hatred based around never wanting tech and magic to work together, but the two attack issue the mechanical one usually raised, when the topic comes under discussion. GIven that we now have a tech example that does same thing as the magic bullet would though, i think issue has fallen by way side as it were.

As to the rest, magic bullets are thing, FA makes that clear, and before that hard target made it practical. Capsules would just a nicer gentler way of doing it.  Most of you, for whatever reason, supported the magic arrow/throwing object crap. So it's time to accept the reality of magic bullets and move on. It's was inevitable as soon as alchemy was presented in 5th, I said so from just after day one, and have said so ever sense, and guess what? Low behold magic bullets have happened. As i said at the time, and as has been accepted You can build bullets and guns that are designed so the bullets don't deform, and won't be damaged by a little thing like powder pressure, rifling or going through people, or hitting a brick for that matter, there is no shortage of very hard materials.

Anyways the more useful thing to do with this topic is figuring out what to do now that the bullets are here. I raised this issue several times in past and most were too busying q_qing about it to come to useful conclusions. So lets do that instead.


 

[Jack_Spade]

@HP15BS

The rules pretty clearly state:
SG p.209
"Many alchemists have attempted to use a preparation as “manatech” weapon. They soon discovered that bullets and other high-velocity projectiles make poor preparations as they or the natural materials used in the preparation are scratched, heated, and/or deformed when fired."

But you are in luck: Hard Targets p. 194

"Some advanced alchemists have taken to filling capsule rounds with liquid alchemical preparations. These work great, but ultimately it is just a work-around for their specialization and lack of skill in raw spellcasting."

So what you proposed is absolutely doable. You just have to contend with the fact that you won't get more than light pistol ranges out of this solution - unless you are using arrows.


The Airbow can be fired with the bow skill or with longarms (but at -3 dice).

[Marcus]

@HP15BS

The rules pretty clearly state:
SG p.209
"Many alchemists have attempted to use a preparation as “manatech” weapon. They soon discovered that bullets and other high-velocity projectiles make poor preparations as they or the natural materials used in the preparation are scratched, heated, and/or deformed when fired."

Oh i was really hoping someone would say something.

ALCHEMICAL ARMORER
15 KARMA
Minimum Requirements: Alchemy 4, Armorer 4,
and advanced alchemy metamagic
This quality gives the character a spell that allows
her to alter the ballistic properties of bullets
by making them target and lynchpin of preparations.
The cost of the Alter Ballistics spell (see p.
51) is factored into the cost of this quality, and the
character does not need to spend any extra Karma
to learn the spell.

Page 31 FA.  Apparently they figured it out.

Get over it and move on.

[Kiirnodel]

@HP15BS

The rules pretty clearly state:
SG p.209
"Many alchemists have attempted to use a preparation as “manatech” weapon. They soon discovered that bullets and other high-velocity projectiles make poor preparations as they or the natural materials used in the preparation are scratched, heated, and/or deformed when fired."

Oh i was really hoping someone would say something.

ALCHEMICAL ARMORER
15 KARMA
Minimum Requirements: Alchemy 4, Armorer 4,
and advanced alchemy metamagic
This quality gives the character a spell that allows
her to alter the ballistic properties of bullets
by making them target and lynchpin of preparations.
The cost of the Alter Ballistics spell (see p.
51) is factored into the cost of this quality, and the
character does not need to spend any extra Karma
to learn the spell.

Page 31 FA.  Apparently they figured it out.

Get over it and move on.

Marcus, you know that Alter Ballistics is not the same as firearm delivered alchemical preparations, right? It is a spell that performs some unique modifiers to that attack. So not really the same thing.

[Marcus]

the key word kirr
is
making them target and lynchpin of preparations.


the property is
Deformation Resistance: –2 AP, –1 DV. Deformation-resistant
bullets do not deform when fired
or upon impact, which inflicts a –4 dice pool penalty
to any Armorer tests to identify the weapon that
fired the bullet. Cannot be used with hollow-point
ammunition.  FA 52

Thus your bullets/preparation make it intact to the target and contact effect is trigger, just like an arrow.

So as deformation has been the basis argument sense day 1, it's exactly what I think it is.

[HP15BS]

You're clearly reaching to excuse this, going as far as to claim it's no worse than venoms and that a liquid is not disturbed when it tumbles about after being fired from a gun. If you don't actually want a debate but just want people to justify your desires, it would be better to not post in the Rules forum, or make it a houserule topic. Right now I think there is no point to this debate so will withdraw from it.

I concede that you made a good point, and your immediate response is to declare you're leaving because I only want validation for my own view...

Seriously? 

[Marcus]

You're clearly reaching to excuse this, going as far as to claim it's no worse than venoms and that a liquid is not disturbed when it tumbles about after being fired from a gun. If you don't actually want a debate but just want people to justify your desires, it would be better to not post in the Rules forum, or make it a houserule topic. Right now I think there is no point to this debate so will withdraw from it.

I concede that you made a good point, and your immediate response is to declare you're leaving because I only want validation for my own view...

Seriously? 

Yeah i got no idea on that one. Michael just feeling moody i guess?